Author Topic: Flint/Flour/Ornamental Corn for Central Ohio River Valley  (Read 7117 times)

reed

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Re: Flour/Ornamental Corn for Central Ohio River Valley
« Reply #45 on: 2018-12-10, 03:28:15 AM »
Humm... I want the  colored pericarp and figure on anything but the very dark red I'll still be able to see different shades and select accordingly.

I also really need the maysin in all my corn. Otherwise I lose the flexibility in planting time and only be able to plant early, leaving no option to plant again if hail storm or something ruined an early planting. It's got that bad here, corn maturing much after mid July is gonna be eaten by the worms.

Starting the flint project with just dark yellow crossed to CRG might do the trick for a dark endosperm with variable pericarp by my only source of maysin has white endosperm.  ZC is the opposite of every goal in the flint but it has to be there and to keep the maysin I may have to back cross multiple times. So I guess I'm gonna be dealing with varying shades and floury endosperm in my flint corn for a long time. I might need to acquire some high carotene yellow and cross it to ZC first, then introduce the colored pericarp later. 

Critical to my color preference in both the flint and flour projects is to make sure no aleurone color sneaks in. 

Oxbow Farm

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Re: Flour/Ornamental Corn for Central Ohio River Valley
« Reply #46 on: 2018-12-10, 06:59:08 AM »
Humm... I want the  colored pericarp and figure on anything but the very dark red I'll still be able to see different shades and select accordingly.


I'm not saying its impossible reed, but selecting high carotene endosperm color through colored pericarp is going to really complicate your life.  Even the lightest pink or bronze tint to the pericarp totally skews and masks the endosperm color to a huge degree. 



Carol Deppe

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Re: Flour/Ornamental Corn for Central Ohio River Valley
« Reply #47 on: 2018-12-10, 08:40:42 PM »
I'm not saying its impossible reed, but selecting high carotene endosperm color through colored pericarp is going to really complicate your life.  Even the lightest pink or bronze tint to the pericarp totally skews and masks the endosperm color to a huge degree.
I agree. However, you can get what you want by developing  a worm resistant high caroteen corn first. I'd suggest crossing your high caroteen material to Zap, backcross once, then self a generation or two to get high caroteen worm resistant material that is pure for high caroteen endosperm and has a somewhat flinty character. You will likely by then have worm resistant flour material with pericarp colors in your flour corn project. Cross the two. Then do recurrent backcrissing of that F1 to your worm resistant high caroteen flint to develop your worm resistant high caroteen flint with colored pericaros. You will lose half the genes for the unwanted white endosperm with every round of backcrossing, and it won't matter that you mostly can't see the endosperm colors at all.


Joseph Lofthouse

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Re: Flour/Ornamental Corn for Central Ohio River Valley
« Reply #48 on: 2018-12-10, 10:40:26 PM »

Carol: My strategy for parching corn is the same as for popping: Add oil to pan. Turn heat up to high. Heat to smoke point. Add corn, and shake like crazy until crackling/popping stops. Get it out of the hot pan immediately.

Parched corn for me is more about entertainment than about flavor or edibility... Something interesting to do when bored, but not for a utilitarian purpose such as nutrition, nor to be dazzled with amazing flavors. I don't notice much difference in savor between different colors. In any case, I prefer variety over sameness.

Sweet corn parches more consistently soft for me. I care more about the ease of chewing than about the savoriness. One of these days, I would like to explore parching nixtamalized corn, and adding parched corn to soups.

My climate is hyper-arid. Corn seed dries to about 8% moisture. For best results popping, I need to add about 6% moisture to popcorn a day or more prior to popping. I wonder if I would enjoy parched corn more if I added moisture to it prior to cooking?

I harvested more than a cup of teosinte seed this fall. I'm intending to try parching/popping some of it.

Andrew Barney

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Re: Flour/Ornamental Corn for Central Ohio River Valley
« Reply #49 on: 2018-12-10, 11:25:39 PM »
Is the maysin trait linked to salmon silks? Are salmon silks liked to a particular seed color?

reed

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Re: Flour/Ornamental Corn for Central Ohio River Valley
« Reply #50 on: 2018-12-11, 07:17:43 AM »
Is the maysin trait linked to salmon silks? Are salmon silks liked to a particular seed color?

The maysin is linked to the salmon silks but in a bad way. The salmon Sm genes block production of maysin. I don't know if Sm gene is linked to a particular paricarp color but the genes for red pericarp nullify the influence of the Sm so a corn that has both can produce maysin.

There are lots more details I don't know yet. Like assuming a corn lacks the Sm genes, can it produce maysin, with or without the red pericarp genes? I suspect it can. Although in the literature the color of glumes is also mentioned as being related and white ZC has very dark glumes, it also has hints of pink in the peicarp of some kernels. But my ZC, from GRIN is a strain that was selected for purple stalks and husks. Pictures of ZC on a Mexican web site show it with dry blond husks. So maybe, the red color is in no way related to or necessary for maysin except in the property of blocking the effect of salmon silks genes.

I'm going for now, till I find out different that if I get rid of the salmon silk genes, or better yet never include it in the first place that I can have maysin producing corn in any color I want.

reed

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Re: Flour/Ornamental Corn for Central Ohio River Valley
« Reply #51 on: 2018-12-12, 09:12:03 AM »
I agree. However, you can get what you want by developing  a worm resistant high caroteen corn first. I'd suggest crossing your high caroteen material to Zap, backcross once, then self a generation or two to get high caroteen worm resistant material that is pure for high caroteen endosperm and has a somewhat flinty character. You will likely by then have worm resistant flour material with pericarp colors in your flour corn project. Cross the two. Then do recurrent backcrissing of that F1 to your worm resistant high caroteen flint to develop your worm resistant high caroteen flint with colored pericaros. You will lose half the genes for the unwanted white endosperm with every round of backcrossing, and it won't matter that you mostly can't see the endosperm colors at all.

I was thinking something along those lines but, I'm a little on the impatient side and I'm not especially tied to perfection.

So to start my flint rather than vigorously pursue the  high caroteen I will just plant a patch of seven rows with the middle one being zap chico to be detasseled. The other rows to be 1/2 high caroteen colorless and the other 1/2 CRG at opposite ends.

This I hope will give me an F1 with ZC mothers, most or all of which will already show some yellow endosperm, and if I'm lucky some flinty nature.

Also a good part of it will already be carrying genes for pericarp color but since pericarp color is maternal from the colorless mother I'll be able to see the yellow endosperm even in the F1.

If I'm lucky there may be some variation to the yellow and I'll just select the darker ones to go on with. In future I will always be able to see darker shades certainly on otherwise colorless ears but also on most others except maybe dark red. From then on, since I know shade variation is not due to aleurone all I got to do is select darker kernels. I could even file through the pericarp of the very dark red ones but probably would just take my chances with them.

I figure this way I may have to put up with ears with varying shades of color but it will gradually go away over generations and I won't have to start over selecting for flint as I would if I brought in color later on form the flour side of the project.

I'v never grown it but CRG sounds like the a perfect fit for the project as is . 85 dtm, the same as the Manna flour corns. I have grown MM and it flowers a week to ten days before ZC, so if CGR is in line with that it's also perfect for maintaining the very important, short season aspect of my project. Long ears, good husk coverage, only thing it's missing is maysin, but I'll fix that.
« Last Edit: 2018-12-12, 09:29:35 AM by reed »

Joseph Lofthouse

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Re: Flour/Ornamental Corn for Central Ohio River Valley
« Reply #52 on: 2018-12-12, 12:47:13 PM »

Reed: I find that there is a lot of power in population dynamics... If I have a population in which the high carotene trait is widely distributed, it will tend to remain highly distributed in the population unless it is eliminated through active or inadvertent selection. It's not an easy thing to lose a trait from a population if 90% of the plants in the population carry the trait.


Olaf Nurlif

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Re: Flour/Ornamental Corn for Central Ohio River Valley
« Reply #53 on: 2019-02-26, 04:46:49 PM »
I grow corn that is far removed from typical.

I see kernels sometimes that  are almost completely purple, inside and out. I save kernels from time to time, but haven't done much breeding with them.

I imported genetics from South America which produce orange (beta-carotene) hard starch instead of yellow (zeaxanthin).

The attached photos show kernels broken open to expose the insides. The high carotene corn pops up yellow. I wonder if the high anthocyanin corns would pop purple?

That's very interesting. I never read about or saw any purple flint endosperm.
Have you tried scraping off the aleurone layer to see if the anthos are really in the endosperm?

Do you know where the germplasm came from? Kculli?!



Purple Polenta, mhhh... :)

Steve1

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Re: Flour/Ornamental Corn for Central Ohio River Valley
« Reply #54 on: 2019-02-28, 02:55:37 AM »
Mike,  In my experience it is extremely easy to remove dent and flint characteristics from flour corn mixed populations by visually selecting them as long as you have pericarp that is clear enough to see the endosperm.  With opaque pericarp colors you can still eliminate visibly "denty" phenotypes but getting rid of flinty endosperm is pretty hard unless you start hand pollinating and selfing, which is upping the labor intensiveness of the breeding work quite a bit.  In my own white flour grex I have included Caribbean flints which were very flinty, as well as TuxpeŮo which is a pretty classic dent, and Coroico/Pirincinco which had flinty/denty/and floury all mixed together.  My procedure is to de-tassel for two years and then visually select for the visibly flouriest kernels in the F2 ears that have made the cut for other agronomic characters like standability, NLB resistance etc.  The F2 selected seed is added to the grex and allowed to pollinate and be selected with the mass population.


My personal approach has been to do everything I can to eliminate pericarp and aleurone colors from my populations so I can visually select endosperm character to select individual kernels within an individual ear.  It really depends on your goal for the corn though.  Pericarp and aleurone color is really useful for an ornamental corn like reed is building.  For my own uses the colors don't add anything I need, and prevent me from selecting my corn the way I want to as well as interfering with nixtamalization.


Just wondering has anyone used salt/water mixes for seperating flint and flour corns? I came across a paper a while ago (purple polenta maybe?) that demonstrated a linear relationship between kernal density and flint flour type - which seems obvious enough. Flints sank and flours floated in a given concentration of salt solution. Would be quick and dirty, be independant of pericarp/aluerone colour and perhaps kill two birds with one stone. Could also allow you to exclude extreme flints if that was your goal.

Any thoughts appreciated as in Australia we have only a few flints and a couple of projects I'm gearing up to do are going to have to include flour corns.

Joseph Lofthouse

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Re: Flour/Ornamental Corn for Central Ohio River Valley
« Reply #55 on: 2019-02-28, 09:51:19 AM »
Just wondering has anyone used salt/water mixes for seperating flint and flour corns?

I have used sugar/water mixes for separating different kinds of sweet corn. It seems to have worked well. Sugar is more soluble in water, so I found it easier to work with.


Steve1

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Re: Flour/Ornamental Corn for Central Ohio River Valley
« Reply #56 on: 2019-03-01, 04:14:00 AM »
I have used sugar/water mixes for separating different kinds of sweet corn. It seems to have worked well. Sugar is more soluble in water, so I found it easier to work with.

Hadn't considered sugar! What genes were you differentiating? se and su?
Here is one of the papers relating to this.

https://pubag.nal.usda.gov/download/24959/PDF

 

« Last Edit: 2019-03-27, 12:20:59 AM by Steve1 »

reed

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Re: Flour/Ornamental Corn for Central Ohio River Valley
« Reply #57 on: 2019-04-29, 09:01:45 AM »
Almost time to get some seeds in the ground, maybe a little later than I might have liked due to lots of rain but soon! I think finally, I'v decided on how to proceed. I went back and reread Carol's books and posts on HG as well as Tim's from Oxbow Farm. He also has some great really great YouTube videos about his corn projects. I'll be building my corns largely not just on their teachings but with their seeds and some of Joseph's too, HUGE head start. I would have figured it all out on my own of course,  :D in maybe about a hundred years.

I'll be developing a flint and flour corn simultaneously. My gardens are about 200 feet apart so not too worried about crossing and I'll use timing as well, once of course, I see when each one flowers, I haven't grown them all yet. My Zapalote Chico will be incorporated into both to bring in the maysin production to fight the fall worms so lots of work to do there but critical to my goals. I won't rehash my obsession with ZC and all it's great attributes. That is one of the major differences between my projects and theirs.

I want both of my corns to be variable for pericarp color but I'm looking for yellow/orange endosperm in the flint and white in the flour. In the flint I'll primarily be using Oxbow Farm's yellow flint grex  and Carol's Cascade Ruby Gold crossed on to ZC as the mother. I figure in the first cross I'll easily see any difference in the shade of yellow on the ZC mothers and use them accordingly when comes time for back crossing, once I figure out how to do that. I might get lazy and just de-hybridize what ever results selecting for flint, pericarp color color intensity and of course worm resistance. The OYF and CRG paternal plants will just be allowed to cross between themselves.
Hoped for result PATCH 1: [ZC x (OYF & CRG)] hybrid and [OYF x CRG] blended hybrid

I have a head start on my flour project with last year's seed from Oxbow White Flour and ZC and their crosses. And I was lucky enough to find some colored pericarp  still lurking around in the OWF. I'll be using those crossed seeds along with Carol's Magic Manna and more OWF as pollen source for more ZC. Although I doubt I'll be able to recognize them some of these resulting seeds will be 3/4 ZC but carrying some colored pericarp.
Hoped for result PATCH 2: [ZC x (white flour, color pericarp blend) grex? and (white flour, color pericarp grex?)


Now for the tricky part. I have lots of diversity collected from my previous flour corn projects that I refuse to discard.  This includes Joseph's Neandercorn and Harmony Grain Corn as well as several other western four corns all mixed up and selected for short season, lodging resistance, good tip cover and so on.  It also includes Painted Mountain, Magic Manna and Cascade Cream Cap all crossed to an extremely diverse collection of sweet corns. Some of those sweet corns include modern, highly disease resistant hybrids. And I have Bronze Beauty and pure Cascade cream Cap flints. So, I'm thinking I'll use this whole mess as mother plants in a patch of pure ZC.

I'm actually a little conflicted on this last one though. I would kind of like to use CZ as mother here too, it would still give the ZC cross but there is considerable danger of colored aleuron in that mix I don't want too much of that blowing around. Also if I used ZC as father I don't have to grow still a fourth patch to get some pure ZC for future use. Everything I'm using has relatively short maturity so plenty of options on staggered planting so I guess I still have plenty of options.


« Last Edit: 2019-04-29, 09:58:49 AM by reed »

esoteric_agriculture

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Re: Flour/Ornamental Corn for Central Ohio River Valley
« Reply #58 on: 2019-04-30, 04:10:44 PM »
Thrilled to read about you pursuing this corn project, Mr. Reed. Iíve thought for years about incorporating Zapalote Chico into some of my corn projects, but havenít gotten seed. I grew out Bronze Beauty Flint myself in 2017, and have some exciting crosses of it made as well as some selected pure Bronze Beauty to plant shortly.  Thatís an interesting variety with some real potential the more Iíve thought about how I move forward with my own projects. Good luck and keep us posted!
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reed

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Re: Flour/Ornamental Corn for Central Ohio River Valley
« Reply #59 on: 2019-05-01, 07:36:51 AM »
Thrilled to read about you pursuing this corn project, Mr. Reed. I’ve thought for years about incorporating Zapalote Chico into some of my corn projects, but haven’t gotten seed. I grew out Bronze Beauty Flint myself in 2017, and have some exciting crosses of it made as well as some selected pure Bronze Beauty to plant shortly.  That’s an interesting variety with some real potential the more I’ve thought about how I move forward with my own projects. Good luck and keep us posted!

I'm looking forward to seeing how the Bronze Beauty does here. It and some others will be in their first year in my garden so don't know yet how flowering will match up. I know that Magic Manna is just a little earlier than Zapalote Chico, I suspect Cascade Cream Cap and Cascade Ruby Gold are as well. Oxbow White Flour was variable, some earlier, some with and some later than ZC but all overlapped at least a little. Zapalote Chico can be a little variable on the same plant, later ears on the main stalk and small tassels on a few tillers. It doesn't make a lot of tillers but it might make more if grown on wider spacing. I don't mind tillers, assuming they are capable of making more ears. 

ZC has some drawbacks, it's a little bit dented, the ears are small only about 6 inches tops and has more rows of kernels than I like. Still I love it, the dark purple shucks are beautiful, it grows great in my garden, resists lodging, tolerates dry spells, it's plenty short season enough for my preference and last but not least of course is the worm resistance. I'm really anxious to see how the traits combine with the other corns in the patches. 

I'll be growing a patch of pure ZC too so if you decide you want some seeds later, let me know.

Since it will still be a few more days till I plant the main patches I'v added another small patch to my list. I'm staring a few plants in pots in the cold frame to transplant. It's a mix of (OWF x ZC), (ZC x OWF) and ((PM x sweet) x (ZC  & OWF)). Will just be about 50 plants but if it works out it will give F3 seeds to plant later and see if I get any interesting colored ears carrying the worm resistance. 
« Last Edit: 2019-05-01, 07:46:08 AM by reed »