Author Topic: Interspecies squash hybrids  (Read 9608 times)

Andrew Barney

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Re: Interspecies squash hybrids
« Reply #30 on: 2021-02-12, 12:06:09 PM »
Regarding maximoss, for me it’s pretty much perfect: vigorous, thin skin, buttercup flavor.  Tested as borer resistant last year.    The only thing I was going to breed in was a long neck, but Joseph just achieved this.

oh, cool! I think the packet i have is from before it was named maximoss. I will try to grow some out this year, but getting more up to date genetics from anyone else growing Cucurbita maxi-moss would be awesome as well. Please keep me updated and post any awesome pictures you may have.

In regards to the C. lundelliana discussion, yeah I've found more that say ficifolia is perfectly compatible with it. And other research that says pepo and mixta are of the more difficult ones (though i guess not impossible). lundelliana is supposed to have leaves that look similar to ficifolia i think.

And yes, adding the bitter gene back in might be annoying, but it might be worth the trouble in the long run. Who knows.

I'm not sure if the bitter gene is dominant, but if it is then perhaps from only one cross it could be eliminated in as few as 3 or 4 generations. If that is the case it might be better at first for multiple people to be working on this with only one domesticated species each (and multiple people per species). For example one set of people would work on maxima x lundelliana (and vice versa) crosses and would work on eliminating the bitter gene. Another set of people would work on moschata x lundelliana. Another on ficifolia x lundelliana. Etc. Then when each group has a population that no longer has the bitter gene they could then be merged together in a grex / mass swarm?

Joseph Lofthouse

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Re: Interspecies squash hybrids
« Reply #31 on: 2021-02-12, 01:54:34 PM »
My maxima/moschata population went in two directions:

1- Like a buttercup but with thin, borer resistant vines.

2- Like a long-necked squash. Unfortunately, this population didn't keep the savory maxima taste.

Adrian

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Re: Interspecies squash hybrids
« Reply #32 on: 2021-02-12, 03:15:14 PM »
The taste of moschata is the most dominant?

Chance

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Re: Interspecies squash hybrids
« Reply #33 on: 2021-02-14, 12:41:25 PM »
After speaking with someone who successfully grew lundelliana in New York, I put in a request for seed.  Hopefully it goes through.  He did say it helps to start it early.  I’m going to pollinate it with ficifolia and maximoss (I don’t think it works the other way around?).   In order to cross in pepo I think you have to go through the F1 with moschata.  That’s how it works with martinezii—pepo doesn’t cross with it or moschata but crosses easily with martinezii x moschata.  IIRC it has something to do with moschata being ancestral to the cultivated species. 

Diane Whitehead

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Re: Interspecies squash hybrids
« Reply #34 on: 2021-02-14, 01:12:52 PM »
Do you know of any cultures which include these species as a regular part of their diet?
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Chance

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Re: Interspecies squash hybrids
« Reply #35 on: 2021-02-14, 02:47:31 PM »
Do you know of any cultures which include these species as a regular part of their diet?

The wild species?  No.  They’re too bitter.  But they have been used in breeding to introduce resistances to cultivated species.

Garrett Schantz

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Re: Interspecies squash hybrids
« Reply #36 on: 2021-02-14, 05:08:01 PM »
Do you know of any cultures which include these species as a regular part of their diet?

 Some of the bitter types can be cooked, but they aren't very appetizing. Seeds can be roasted as well.

 Zucchini technically counts. As do many summer squashes. The bitter taste isn't always noticed depending on how you cook things. Pretty sure natives already domesticated non bitter types by the time Europeans came over, but its probable that bitter types were more commonly used in the past.
Bitterness can vary between the wild species, ones similar to zucchini are probably fine.

Cucumbers, bitter gourd are some examples of bitter cucurbits. Certain cultures enjoy bitter tastes.

Garrett Schantz

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Re: Interspecies squash hybrids
« Reply #37 on: 2021-02-14, 05:26:29 PM »
I probably wouldn't try eating the wild types for food though. Best to breed the bitterness out first.

Diane Whitehead

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Re: Interspecies squash hybrids
« Reply #38 on: 2021-02-14, 07:22:59 PM »
There was a bitter gene that got into all the commercial stocks of one squash - I think it was Delicata.  Only rescued from oblivion as someone had some old non-bitter seeds.

I guess any breeder had better be careful and not let bitter ones loose.
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Andrew Barney

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Re: Interspecies squash hybrids
« Reply #39 on: 2021-02-14, 08:08:11 PM »
There was a bitter gene that got into all the commercial stocks of one squash - I think it was Delicata.  Only rescued from oblivion as someone had some old non-bitter seeds.

I guess any breeder had better be careful and not let bitter ones loose.

Thanks for bringing this up. I had forgotten about that story. I believe it may have come from bottle gourds as they are also in C. pepo like delicata.

I think if an experienced breeder knows what they are doing and tastes each fruit before saving seed in the F2 generation and beyond then the bitterness gene should be able to be rouged out. But i guess if even one bitter hybrid is planted and pollen escapes it could take years to rouge it out completely. In that case it might be prudent to have each individual F2 squash isolated in a hoop tunnel to prevent any cross pollination other than itself.

I found these two links that are interesting with that story (even an OSSI) pledged variety!

https://www.wildgardenseed.com/product_info.php?products_id=141

https://permies.com/t/112682/Warning-zucchini-toxicity-eating-taste

Andrew Barney

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Re: Interspecies squash hybrids
« Reply #40 on: 2021-02-14, 08:15:04 PM »
My maxima/moschata population went in two directions:

1- Like a buttercup but with thin, borer resistant vines.

2- Like a long-necked squash. Unfortunately, this population didn't keep the savory maxima taste.

Joseph, weren't you selecting for deeper orange colored moschatas? Did the deeper color have better flavor?

If they do i assume that the maximas from your butercups still had better flavor? Are the hybrids just as good as the maxima flavor or are they better tasting? Do they have any other advantages other than vine borer resistant?

Garrett Schantz

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Re: Interspecies squash hybrids
« Reply #41 on: 2021-02-14, 09:16:26 PM »
You can try eating the leaves of possibly bitter F2 and so on - leaves will be bitter as well.

Andrew Barney

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Re: Interspecies squash hybrids
« Reply #42 on: 2021-02-14, 10:38:40 PM »
You can try eating the leaves of possibly bitter F2 and so on - leaves will be bitter as well.

ooh. this would help a lot to eliminate plants before they reach the pollen stage. Maybe even before the planting out stage if not direct seeded. I can confirm that this method works in solanum black nightshade vs burbank "wonderberry". Tasting the leaves are either like spinach or instant intense headache.

Thanks for the tip Garrett!

Garrett Schantz

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Re: Interspecies squash hybrids
« Reply #43 on: 2021-02-14, 11:32:46 PM »
ooh. this would help a lot to eliminate plants before they reach the pollen stage. Maybe even before the planting out stage if not direct seeded. I can confirm that this method works in solanum black nightshade vs burbank "wonderberry". Tasting the leaves are either like spinach or instant intense headache.

Thanks for the tip Garrett!

 Pretty sure I saw Joseph posting about it somewhere before which is how I found that out. I tried it with ornamental gourds - pumpkin seedlings as a test, seems to work pretty well. The cucurbitacin high leaves are rather unpleasant so they get spit out right away.

Joseph Lofthouse

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Re: Interspecies squash hybrids
« Reply #44 on: 2021-02-14, 11:37:25 PM »
I select all species for deeper orange coloration, because I think carotenes taste great.

The vast majority of the Maxima/Moschata population went entirely to the Maxima/buttercup phenotype for taste, texture, etc. Deep orange savory flesh. I select each generation for thin, borer resistant vines and peduncles. I call these Maximoss. Some of them have gray speckling on the leaves, which makes them more desert adapted.

One plant, about 3 generations ago was off type. I grew it out in semi-isolation near the moschata patch for a couple years. This year, I grew a large population of them. All of them resembled moschata squash.  None of them had the maxima flavor. Boo hoo. I'm calling this population Moschamax. Here's photos of what they looked like.

If I ever started over on this project, I'd try to manually pollinate Tetsukabuto with a moschata.