Author Topic: Some Nice Beans  (Read 2501 times)

kal52

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Re: Some Nice Beans
« Reply #15 on: 2021-03-11, 06:20:23 AM »
That grey color is really beautiful, though I agree when cooked might appeal less ;)

In terms of the mottled F1s, I have done some digging into bean seed coat genetics and there is a trait called "ever-segregating mottle" or something like that, which is the results of heterozygosity at the c locus that results in a mottled pattern. The colors of the mottle are determined by other genes. It's called ever-segregating as its of course not stable, so ultimately the progeny will segregate into the colors that were present in that mottle. I have seen this in most but not all of the crosses I've made, and I assume that is the result of whether the parents have different alleles at that c locus.

There are other genes that confer a stable mottled pattern (such as Whipple) but if you look closely they do have a different phenotype.

This isn't the source I originally found on the topic, but looks like a thorough review:
https://scholarspace.manoa.hawaii.edu/bitstream/10125/56239/1/Troy.pdf

Here is a quote from it:
"Three types of patterned seedcoats have been distinguished from
the beginning of the century (Tschermak, 1901, 1902, 1904; Emerson 1904,
1909; Shull, 1907, 1908). They are: a) solid colors, b) ever-segregating mottling and c) constant mottling. Solid colored seedcoats are
produced by the alleles, 'c1, 'C' and 'Cr' discussed above. Eversegregating mottling refers to the mottling in the heterozygotes of the
'c1, 'C' and 'Cr ' alleles. A heterozygote is mottled in a darker and a
paler color, with the actual colors determined by other genes present
(see Table 1). "

Ferdzy

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Re: Some Nice Beans
« Reply #16 on: 2021-03-11, 06:34:08 AM »
Thanks, kal52. That's interesting and good to know.

As you could see in the most recent photo, the grey marble look was definitely a passing thing. There were a few that had a similar coat but mostly not, and the ones that had it did not stand out as productive or disease resistant, and I'm not sure any made it into the Navy. But it looks like I can expect "ever-segregating" in (some of) this line.

A little more than 2 months until bean planting season. I am champing at the bit.

Ferdzy

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Re: Some Nice Beans
« Reply #17 on: 2021-08-06, 06:58:00 PM »
I've been picking from our various green bean crosses for about a week now. I decided to keep the three main types separate and photograph them.

On the left side, it's the original Blue Lake x Cherokee Trail of Tears cross. As you can tell, it's by far the most productive. It's also the most variable. I don't actually like a lot of the beans; they are too large and too flat, without being flat enough, if that makes any sense. Disease resistance is good, so far. Usually the anthracnose has not shown up anywhere yet, but this year it is already well-established in the Blue Lake due to most of July being rainy and cool. There are certainly some good plants in there and I am marking them to be saved for seed.

On the top right, it's the (Octarora Cornfield x CToT) x (Blue Lake x CToT). As is so usually the case, they are not as good as their F1 parent, mostly because so many of them are very short beans. However, there are 2 or 3 plants with better length beans. Other than that, they seem moderately consistent - good flavour, productive, and disease resistant. There is one that got too ripe, being down near the ground, and got nibbled by slugs or something. You can see it at the lower left of the pile. It's turning a little brown as the edges dry, but there is NO sign of disease, and this is a way it often gets started.

Finally, in the bottom right, there is a (possibly) Anellino Yellow x CToT cross that I've been growing for several years. For the last few years, I've thought that over all they aren't that productive, but there have been a few plants that did better and I'm continuing to select them.

Wildcard: in the first two crosses, I believe I am seeing signs of crossing again, this time with Lazy Housewife which we grew for the first time last year. It's reasonably distinctive for a green bean; rather long pods, rather squared off in cross section, with a slightly rough texture to the skin. I'm seeing signs of it having pollinated ALL kinds of other beans. Apparently not that lazy...

reed

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Re: Some Nice Beans
« Reply #18 on: 2021-08-07, 12:59:25 AM »
Those are all nice looking beans. Sounds like the rule that beans don't cross is about as worthless in your garden as it is in mine. You are doing much better at keeping track of yours though. I just have one that I'm calling Escapee for now that I'm trying to isolate into it's own kind. I found it awhile back in a patch of an old heirloom called Refugee. It is very productive with long pods and brown seeds but after a few years it still comes in a couple different forms.

In my dry bean patch two different black beans showed up although I didn't plant any black seeds. Beans with long purple pods showed up in a patch of semi vining Pinto beans. Pole beans showed up in the bush beans and bush beans showed up in the pole beans. A large white bean with pinkish red streaks showed up in both bush and pole form but other than that look exactly the same.

Chad Meyer

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Re: Some Nice Beans
« Reply #19 on: 2021-08-09, 12:03:09 PM »
Last year I found an odd bean plant in the garden. I didnít keep perfect track of what I planted where, but I suspect it was among the beans I held back and so from a two year old packet, and not the previous yearís saved beans. Itís also possible that I just forgot what I planted where. 

The packet was rattlesnake beans from NS/S. This plant, however had pink and white flowers rather than the purple typical of rattlesnake. The pods are green with pink(!) streaking rather than purple, but otherwise like rattlesnake in flavor, texture, shape etc.  The beans when dry were slightly darker than the rattlesnake beans; youíd likely have a hard time noticing it if I hadnít separated out this plantís beans.  The growth habit of this plant was also odd: it grew very tall (probably 10-12í before it died; it grew into the neighborís lilacs), but it focused itís growth near the top.  The bottom leaves started dying back early but it kept on growing up making new leaves in a way quite atypical of the other ones around it.

I suspected they were some mystery hybrid, and once I got my senses about me and stopped eating them, I collected a handful of seeds to grow out this year hoping theyíre an F2 and would start segregating.  Much to my surprise all the pods look the same (pink on green), however the growth habit is different (4-6í plants so far this year, no dying back, vs 8-12í on the rattlesnakes). So, Iím not sure whether I have a hybrid on my hands or a mutation. It could be that the individual was already an F2 or later.  Iím attaching a picture of the pods next to typical rattlesnake pods; I could not find a flower out there today, but I could post a comparison once there is one.

Iím not sure if Iíve seen pink-streaks on a bean pod before, so Iím happy to encourage this trait.

Ferdzy

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Re: Some Nice Beans
« Reply #20 on: 2021-08-10, 12:34:05 PM »
Chad, it could be a mutation. Since it only seems to be colours that are different I'd say maybe even probably so.

I have to say with crosses, one of them has had obvious segregation of quite varied traits, but for a lot of them it's been more like, this plant has 4" beans, and that plant has 5" beans, or this plant has beans with strings and this one doesn't. So it could be a cross too, I guess.

reed

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Re: Some Nice Beans
« Reply #21 on: 2021-08-11, 07:13:45 AM »
I have to say with crosses, one of them has had obvious segregation of quite varied traits, but for a lot of them it's been more like, this plant has 4" beans, and that plant has 5" beans, or this plant has beans with strings and this one doesn't. So it could be a cross too, I guess.
I think crosses and segregations show up in ways not easily seen, maybe sometimes very subtle. Its easy of course to see if the seeds, flowers or pods are different color but what if the only difference is something like flavor, or a few days difference in maturity? I found a plant with "cut short" seeds this year in a patch where I did not plant such seeds. "Cut short" is where the beans are so crowded in the pod that the ends of the seeds are flat, in my garden it's usually seen in greasy beans. I've also found pods that are curved among beans that are generally very straight or wider and flatter among others that are more round.

I suspect that this always happened some but I used to grow primarily in segregated patches and mostly for use as  greens beans. Using them mostly as green beans eliminated most of the crosses before they ever had a chance to be found. When I started focusing more on growing to store as dry beans and purposely mixing up my plantings my beans soon got unruly and convoluted. I don't pay much attention at all any more, I've mostly given up on even trying to trace the origins of any oddity that shows up. except that if something unusual or unexpected shows up I make sure to save seeds.

One thing I do like to favor in selection is for vines that do climb but not hugely so, I prefer a 4 to 8 foot range rather than the 12 or 20 foot types I used to grow. I also like vines that have multiple stems rather than just a single central one. I'm finding though that vine type is one of those things that can vary, a lot, even if the pods and seeds still look the same.