Author Topic: Salanova lettuce Questions  (Read 323 times)

Nicholas Locke

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Salanova lettuce Questions
« on: 2018-10-18, 05:35:13 PM »
So these have most likely been asked/ discussed on other forums , but I will go ahead anyway.
1* I have been told second hand from the seed agent that Salanova lettuce are not F1s as no commercial lettuce sold are Hybrids?
2* If not has anybody tried to dehybridise any of these lines?
3* Is it legal to save seed for your own use from these patented varieties?

"Maybe" said the farmer...

Oxbow Farm

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Re: Salanova lettuce Questions
« Reply #1 on: 2018-10-18, 05:44:06 PM »
There are no hybrid lettuce at all. 
All lettuce varieties are stabilized OP lines, because either there isn't any effective CMS to produce hybrid seed or it isn't economical, I'm not sure which.  I think that's why they are going so heavily with utility patents with lettuce varieties, there isn't really any way to stop someone from saving the seed and getting the identical product, so bring in the lawyers to make 'em stop it. 

Saving seed from them is definitely not legal from their point of view.  I think the whole concept of salad mix is bad, so Salanova has never interested me, even if it wasn't patented. 


Raymondo

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Re: Salanova lettuce Questions
« Reply #2 on: 2018-10-19, 03:26:02 AM »
As Tim says, not legal but how would they know if a home gardener saved seed and grew it? It would be a little riskier for a market gardener to start saving seed and growing it for sale, but again, how would they know? Of course, they may be reading this forum. I know Australian Quarantine read plant forums so why not Rijk Zwaan!
I was thinking of trialling some of the Salanova lettuces until I discovered the patent. Too expensive to keep buying the seed and in any case there are many, many non-patented lettuces out there to trial for our market garden.
Ray
Mildly acidic clay loam over clay and ironstone; temperate climate modified by altitude (1000m); avg rainfall 780mm; usually wet summers and dry winters.

Nicholas Locke

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Re: Salanova lettuce Questions
« Reply #3 on: 2018-10-22, 03:40:04 AM »
Hi Ray,
the only place I have found to buy it here is Lambleys and yes its dear as poison! I dont really care if it is legal or not was just curious! Im trialing alot of frank mortons stuff at the moment, but for the bulk of it I need to use something i know works so thats why I still have salanova.

Oxbow, define what you mean by "salad mix is bad"?
 
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Oxbow Farm

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Re: Salanova lettuce Questions
« Reply #4 on: 2018-10-22, 06:34:43 AM »
Oxbow, define what you mean by "salad mix is bad"?

Salad mix is probably the most existential threat to small market gardeners IMO, I cannot wait for the moment when the robot farms make cut salad mix non-profitable.  It is a food safety nightmare.  Selling a prebagged product indicates to customers that they don't need to wash it before use.  I prefer to sell raw materials that the customer has too process to turn into a meal.  Pre-bagged, pre-washed makes people think salad mix is clean and safe to eat without further processing or washing, when the science demonstrates that it is NOT.  If enough people get sick from farmer's market salad mix, that's just about the death of my business model.  But this is approaching a political topic so that's as far as I think I should go with that line of discussion.

Ocimum

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Re: Salanova lettuce Questions
« Reply #5 on: 2018-10-23, 11:57:56 AM »
I think salanova is a brand name (R), and not a patented variety (C). There are different salad types under the name salanova, which is supporting this theory. If I am right, you could breed with this genetic material. Just not use the name salanova.

And if it is patented (whatever bs they could patent, for example the really dense head), as the website says salanova started in the early 90s https://www.salanova.com/our-heritage. A patent is only valid 20-25 years.



 

Joseph Lofthouse

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Re: Salanova lettuce Questions
« Reply #6 on: 2018-10-23, 01:07:41 PM »
It's like the wheat called Kamut(TM). I call it by it's 10,000 year old name of Khorasan wheat, and not by the trademarked name belonging to The conglomerate.
« Last Edit: 2018-10-23, 01:45:45 PM by Joseph Lofthouse »

Joseph Lofthouse

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Re: Salanova lettuce Questions
« Reply #7 on: 2018-10-23, 02:01:16 PM »

I wanted to mention that a friend received a packet of seeds with a message on it, something like: "protected by patent number blah, blah, blah". So not available for plant breeding eh? Well, when we looked up the patent number, it was for something like the glue in the packaging that was patented. The patent had nothing to do with the seeds.

Oxbow Farm

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Joseph Lofthouse

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Re: Salanova lettuce Questions
« Reply #9 on: 2018-10-23, 03:01:40 PM »

One of the patent numbers listed for Salanova lettuce is: 5977443. That patent is for resistance to aphids. The filing date was 1996-11-12. Therefore,  that patent expired two years ago.

That makes the following SalanovaŽ varieties available for plant breeding: Green Incised, Red Incised, Green Sweet Crisp, Red Sweet Crisp.

Nicholas Locke

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Re: Salanova lettuce Questions
« Reply #10 on: 2018-10-24, 02:35:18 AM »
well there you go!
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Nicholas Locke

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Re: Salanova lettuce Questions
« Reply #11 on: 2018-10-24, 02:56:24 AM »
Salad mix is probably the most existential threat to small market gardeners IMO, I cannot wait for the moment when the robot farms make cut salad mix non-profitable.  It is a food safety nightmare.  Selling a prebagged product indicates to customers that they don't need to wash it before use.  I prefer to sell raw materials that the customer has too process to turn into a meal.  Pre-bagged, pre-washed makes people think salad mix is clean and safe to eat without further processing or washing, when the science demonstrates that it is NOT.  If enough people get sick from farmer's market salad mix, that's just about the death of my business model.  But this is approaching a political topic so that's as far as I think I should go with that line of discussion.
I would much rather sell whole heads of lettuce, or even loose salad mix (which I do) but the reality is that I sell a SH*T tonne more when bagged. People are Innately lazy , I had many idealistic/ ethical dilemmas over this sort of stuff but it came down to me either being able to pay the bills doing organic market gardening , or doing work which I did not enjoy and was alot more against my ethics then the former.
I think if the biology thats on your veg is dominated by what is going to make you sick washing it with water isnt going to get rid of it anyway, unless its with bleach or heavily chlorinated.   
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reed

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Re: Salanova lettuce Questions
« Reply #12 on: 2018-10-24, 05:00:51 AM »
At least as it applies to commercial stuff like at the grocery store or in restaurants there must be something about the process or storage, or maybe just having been sealed up in bags that cause a bacteria or toxin that my body doesn't like. I never eat it cause it pretty much always made me sick. My theory is it must be the sealing in the bags that causes it cause surely it can't all be contaminated from the growers but I don't know.

My own is fine, even though I occasionally eat a little dirt or bugs along with it.

As far as the Salanova goes, there lots of other kinds, 83 varieties just at OSSI, surely there are good options other than the one with an r by it's name.
« Last Edit: 2018-10-24, 05:03:44 AM by reed »

Oxbow Farm

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Re: Salanova lettuce Questions
« Reply #13 on: 2018-10-24, 05:37:00 AM »
I would much rather sell whole heads of lettuce, or even loose salad mix (which I do) but the reality is that I sell a SH*T tonne more when bagged. People are Innately lazy , I had many idealistic/ ethical dilemmas over this sort of stuff but it came down to me either being able to pay the bills doing organic market gardening , or doing work which I did not enjoy and was alot more against my ethics then the former.
I think if the biology thats on your veg is dominated by what is going to make you sick washing it with water isnt going to get rid of it anyway, unless its with bleach or heavily chlorinated.

Nope, washing removes a lot of pathogenic bacteria.  Not washing leaves them on.  The studies on this are really cut and dried.  Washing produce with plain water is an important safety step. The idea is not to remove all bacteria, it is to reduce the population of bacteria below a harmful threshold.  It doesn't even need to be harmful bacteria that were on it when you harvested and bagged it, it can be harmful bacteria that came from their own hands or lives in their fridge.  If you bag salad mix, people treat it as a ready to eat product, and they will throw it in their fridge and use it for as long as it doesn't look visibly rotten.  Its a nightmare. 

In any case, the nice thing about the giant mechanized greens producers and robot microgreens farms is that they are rapidly lowering the price point for salad mix/microgreens to the point where it will be unprofitable for small farmers to compete.  That can't happen soon enough as far as I'm concerned.
« Last Edit: 2018-10-24, 05:50:26 AM by Oxbow Farm »

Nicholas Locke

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Re: Salanova lettuce Questions
« Reply #14 on: 2018-10-24, 08:53:16 PM »

In any case, the nice thing about the giant mechanized greens producers and robot microgreens farms is that they are rapidly lowering the price point for salad mix/microgreens to the point where it will be unprofitable for small farmers to compete.  That can't happen soon enough as far as I'm concerned.

Tell me more Oxbow.. Why you not down on the Curtis Stone type farmers..
Personally I dont enjoy growing salad much, not that i grow a heap. I would rather just grow stuff that doesnt flop on the market stand without refrigeration..
"Maybe" said the farmer...