Author Topic: Paste Tomatoes Project  (Read 966 times)

Natasha Flue

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Paste Tomatoes Project
« on: 2019-03-28, 12:51:00 PM »
My paste tomato breeding project is a few different things in one.

An ideal paste tomato for me is 8-12 ounces, produced on indeterminate vines so they produce a smaller amount every few weeks until frost, can hold reasonably well on the plant, and are disease resistant. I am experimenting with dwarf plants this year to see if they work for my growing systems so that is one aspect.

I want larger paste tomatoes because it reduces the amount of cutting I need to do when I'm processing (my sauce process is cook down in a pot for 3-4 hours and then food mill to remove skin and seeds and if I'm making paste, I bake that on sheet trays for another 3-4 hours). I want indeterminates because I prefer to process smaller, more frequent batches of sauce/paste since it fits better with my life and kitchen size. I also don't live where I grow, so if the fruit can hold reasonable well on the plant, or be decent quality even if it's on the ground, it's good for my processing schedule. Disease resistant because late blight is present frequently in the counties around where I grow (USA, PA). I'm less concerned about taste right now because I don't eat fresh tomatoes, all of my tomatoes get processed into sauce and paste. I also don't have that discerning of a taste because I didn't taste any differences in the sauces I made with last year's trial. It all tastes like tomato to me  :P

The varieties I'm growing out for this are: Amish Paste, Federle, Speckled Roman, Grandma Mary's, Plum Perfect, Plum Regal, Dwarf Sneaky Sauce.

The first three, I grew out last year and were the best in my trial with the biggest fruit and best harvest over time. Grandma Mary's is a new one but it has promise for big fruit. Dwarf Sneaky Sauce is my first dwarf variety to try.

Plum Perfect is a Cornell bred line released through High Mowing Seeds this year with resistances to Verticillium, Fusarium (I1, I2, I3), late blight, root knot nematodes, bacterial speck, TSWV and early blight tolerance. I don't know what the genes for late blight resistance are and I can't find out anywhere online.

I plan to cross all of the plants with each other, just because I want to see what the F1s and F2s look like and possibly combine the extra seed I have into a landrace. So the Amish PastexFederle cross might not be super interesting but it will give me some practice doing the physical crosses. I also kinda want a range of shapes because I find random shaped tomatoes hilarious.

I also received some of Joseph's Beautifully Promiscuous tomatoes that I plan to fold into all of these varieties and create a landrace separate from my other breeding crosses that might also have resistances from his work.

A thing I'm not sure about: how does crossing an F1 like Plum Perfect and Plum Regal affect the transfer of resistance genes? Since Plum Regal is homozygous for its trait, it should be normal like any other homozygous trait. But since I don't know about Plum Perfect, should I grow out extra plants from those crosses? Shoudl I cross it with Plum Regal and then to my other pastes? Should I let it self and see what comes out? All of the above?

Some of the issues with breeding Plum Perfect and Plum Regal into the other tomatoes is that they are both determinate and in the 4-6 ounce range. Dwarf Sneaky Sauce is also in the 4-6 ounce range. I'm not sure why the commercial growers have decided 4-6 ounces is the best size but the majority of paste tomatoes are in this range. I've still got a few more that are larger I'm going to pick up for next year but it's only a few.

My plants aren't being started for a few weeks yet, but I'm excited to see what comes out of these crosses.

gmuller

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Re: Paste Tomatoes Project
« Reply #1 on: 2019-03-29, 02:22:58 AM »
Hi Natasha.
I'll leave some of the more experienced tomato breeders to answer the genetics questions.
A couple of points you might like to consider - Moisture content. I've used a range of heritage tomatoes and a commercial hothouse line that is locally available in bulk here, and spent a considerable time cooking down the pasata. This year I exclusively used 'Roma' styles and reduced the cooking time remarkably. (After overhearing a conservation at the farmer's market, I tried baking the sliced tomatoes for a couple of hours at around 120C - reduced moisture, and added a real depth of flavour - but I digress)

'Opalka' produces large paste toms, and I have had Palmwood highly recommended by a commercial heritage tomato grower as producing very large fruit - perhaps check them out.

Another crossing question you might like to consider - which of each pair should be the pollen donor? just thinking of mitochondrial factors in terms of robustness and possible disease resistance - but just speculating...
GM

reed

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Re: Paste Tomatoes Project
« Reply #2 on: 2019-03-29, 06:51:56 AM »
I found this article about Plumb Perfect, says it has Ph3. http://blogs.evergreen.edu/fieldstudy-patrick/variety-f-plum-perfect/, not a good review of it overall though it sounds like.

William S.

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Re: Paste Tomatoes Project
« Reply #3 on: 2019-03-29, 08:12:15 AM »
Have you read Carol Deppe's Tao book with the tomato section? We've had some discussions and there are two interesting approaches to late blight here. You already have a packet of Josephs seed which is one. Going back to wild species. The second is to capitalize on existing breeding work. Carol points out in her book that Iron Lady F1 is homozygous for Ph2 and Ph3. So the basic scheme would be to take your favorite tomato and or your tomato breeding project and make sure to cross it with Iron Lady F1. Carol wants to do this systematically on a large scale to preserve something of heirloom tomato diversity.
Western Montana garden, glacial lake Missoula sediment lacustrian clay mollisoil sometimes with added sand in places. Zone 6A

Joseph Lofthouse

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Re: Paste Tomatoes Project
« Reply #4 on: 2019-03-29, 03:25:36 PM »
I attended the NOFA-NY seed conference this winter. One of the plant breeders was telling about tomatoes that he is working on that have like 20 different resistance genes built into them. I wasn't paying much attention, cause that's not my way, but I seem to remember that the seed is commercially available.

Natasha Flue

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Re: Paste Tomatoes Project
« Reply #5 on: 2019-03-31, 06:21:19 AM »
A couple of points you might like to consider - Moisture content. I've used a range of heritage tomatoes and a commercial hothouse line that is locally available in bulk here, and spent a considerable time cooking down the pasata. This year I exclusively used 'Roma' styles and reduced the cooking time remarkably. (After overhearing a conservation at the farmer's market, I tried baking the sliced tomatoes for a couple of hours at around 120C - reduced moisture, and added a real depth of flavour - but I digress)

'Opalka' produces large paste toms, and I have had Palmwood highly recommended by a commercial heritage tomato grower as producing very large fruit - perhaps check them out.

Another crossing question you might like to consider - which of each pair should be the pollen donor? just thinking of mitochondrial factors in terms of robustness and possible disease resistance - but just speculating...
GM

Thanks for the suggestions! Roma style tomatoes tend to be determinates, which don't work for me, but Federle and SPeckled Roman are similar in shape. Opalka is on my list for next year! I ran out of seed money to get everything I wanted haha.

I'll be honest, I need to re-read Carol Deppe's book to think about the pollen donor question. I just figured I could do the crosses both ways and see what happens. I don't have enough technical knowledge to understand how that affects the traits I'm looking for.

I found this article about Plumb Perfect, says it has Ph3. http://blogs.evergreen.edu/fieldstudy-patrick/variety-f-plum-perfect/, not a good review of it overall though it sounds like.


Oh geez, I read that article and completely missed that. Thank you! I know it isn't a great variety but I'm using it for it's disease resistance rather than much else.


Have you read Carol Deppe's Tao book with the tomato section? We've had some discussions and there are two interesting approaches to late blight here. You already have a packet of Josephs seed which is one. Going back to wild species. The second is to capitalize on existing breeding work. Carol points out in her book that Iron Lady F1 is homozygous for Ph2 and Ph3. So the basic scheme would be to take your favorite tomato and or your tomato breeding project and make sure to cross it with Iron Lady F1. Carol wants to do this systematically on a large scale to preserve something of heirloom tomato diversity.

I did read the posts about it. I've thought about getting Iron Lady, but I don't know if I have the ability right now to select and breed out all the slicer tomato traits. That's why I'm starting with the Plum Perfect and Plum Regal, because they're most similar to my ideal tomato. That's also why I'm considering having a separate population with Joseph's tomatoes because I don't know if I'm going to be able to get the qualities I like back from the cross. Maybe I'll get Iron Lady next year once I've got some seed that I can split into batches and keep separate populations. It might be better to start with something that's already got the Ph3 gene in it if I can select that in my pastes. I'm also out of seed money for this year  :P

I attended the NOFA-NY seed conference this winter. One of the plant breeders was telling about tomatoes that he is working on that have like 20 different resistance genes built into them. I wasn't paying much attention, cause that's not my way, but I seem to remember that the seed is commercially available.

Interesting!

Thanks everyone!

reed

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Re: Paste Tomatoes Project
« Reply #6 on: 2019-03-31, 07:01:31 AM »
The price of seed is getting pretty ridiculous. I paid I think $4.95 for ten Iron Lady seeds plus shipping and was impressed that I got exactly ten, not eleven, ten.  :P

I have Plum Regal in F4 or 5, pretty sure it is homozygous for Ph 2 and 3 so should still have both if I understand that right. Actually never saw much difference between later generations and the F1. I'm interested in learning to sun dry tomatoes and think it might be good for that. I also have what I call Utah Heart which I'v raved about before. It came from Joseph's 'early all kinds" a few seasons ago. Not especially disease resistant or even super productive but it is a fantastic tomato for canning juice and sauce, we always get plenty early enough to fill our jars before the bad diseases hit. The picture is of the first year I grew it in complete neglect. It stood up on its own in the weeds and made a few fruits. Fruits are much bigger grown in the tended part of the garden.

Natasha, message your address if you would like seeds of these.




« Last Edit: 2019-03-31, 07:04:49 AM by reed »

Steve1

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Re: Paste Tomatoes Project
« Reply #7 on: 2019-04-01, 08:14:04 AM »
Hi Natasha,
as GM pointed out - water is what most farmers want to sell, solids is what we want for paste.
You could do wet / dry weights on a number of varieties if you had a dehydrator, or another avenue is to look around for commercial soup varieties - tomato soup canneries do not want water either.
Though they are likely to be determinate, but might be sources of useful genes in your project.
Good luck.
Steve

Ferdzy

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Re: Paste Tomatoes Project
« Reply #8 on: 2019-04-01, 08:46:40 AM »
I see a mention of Speckled Roman here. We grew it for a few years and really liked it as a tomato. However, as time went on the septoria leaf spot got to be more and more of a problem in our garden. In our experience resistance to that varies only slightly, and the only plant strategy that really works is being long and rangy and out-growing it. Speckled Roman was an exception in that it was particularly susceptible to septoria leaf spot because the fungus didn't just affect the leaves, but also would grow on the "speckles" leaving us with a lot of unusable fruit. I don't know how other tomatoes with that kind of pattern on the fruit do; we haven't grown a lot of them.

Natasha Flue

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Re: Paste Tomatoes Project
« Reply #9 on: 2019-04-02, 01:43:40 PM »
The price of seed is getting pretty ridiculous. I paid I think $4.95 for ten Iron Lady seeds plus shipping and was impressed that I got exactly ten, not eleven, ten.  :P

I have Plum Regal in F4 or 5, pretty sure it is homozygous for Ph 2 and 3 so should still have both if I understand that right. Actually never saw much difference between later generations and the F1. I'm interested in learning to sun dry tomatoes and think it might be good for that. I also have what I call Utah Heart which I'v raved about before. It came from Joseph's 'early all kinds" a few seasons ago. Not especially disease resistant or even super productive but it is a fantastic tomato for canning juice and sauce, we always get plenty early enough to fill our jars before the bad diseases hit. The picture is of the first year I grew it in complete neglect. It stood up on its own in the weeds and made a few fruits. Fruits are much bigger grown in the tended part of the garden.

Natasha, message your address if you would like seeds of these.

Thank you for the offer Reed! I sent you a message. The cost on both the Plum Regal and Plum Perfect plus shipping cost me probably $15 total. It's a lot of money! I'll just start breeding with them now if you haven't seen much difference. I wonder if it's only the disease resistance or something else that is in the cross.

Hi Natasha,
as GM pointed out - water is what most farmers want to sell, solids is what we want for paste.
You could do wet / dry weights on a number of varieties if you had a dehydrator, or another avenue is to look around for commercial soup varieties - tomato soup canneries do not want water either.
Though they are likely to be determinate, but might be sources of useful genes in your project.
Good luck.
Steve


Thanks! That's a good thought. I know the San Marzano is pretty widely grown so I'm considering what other varieties I'll fold into next year. I don't want to include a ton of determinates only because I'll have to do more selfing to breed out the determinate trait (recessive). Maybe I'll make a determinate pool and pull the best and most interesting out to bring them into my indeterminates to reduce how much work I'll do breeding out that gene.

I see a mention of Speckled Roman here. We grew it for a few years and really liked it as a tomato. However, as time went on the septoria leaf spot got to be more and more of a problem in our garden. In our experience resistance to that varies only slightly, and the only plant strategy that really works is being long and rangy and out-growing it. Speckled Roman was an exception in that it was particularly susceptible to septoria leaf spot because the fungus didn't just affect the leaves, but also would grow on the "speckles" leaving us with a lot of unusable fruit. I don't know how other tomatoes with that kind of pattern on the fruit do; we haven't grown a lot of them.

I did see that a lot with Speckled Roman last year! It never made a huge difference on the fruit, I think it was mostly on the top and I could cut that off. But that's a good reminder and I need to make a note of that. I'll probably keep those crosses separate from the others. Thanks!

Natasha Flue

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Re: Paste Tomatoes Project
« Reply #10 on: 2019-04-29, 04:00:33 PM »
My tomatoes have all been started, although I only have three breeding varieties in my apartment. The rest are being grown out by friends but they were all started around the same time. Thanks to Reed, I have Utah Heart as well and that, Plum Perfect and Plum Regal all have larger cotyledons than the other two random varieties I have. I'm not betting on that though, as it might be my growing setup that is causing the variation.

The fields aren't prepared yet, but I will be rototilling in the rye/vetch cover in two weeks (May 11/12), followed by another rototill two weeks (May 25/26) after that to make sure the cover crop is mostly buried or dead. Then I will be transplanting in on May 25/26 as we should be frost free. It's hard to tell how the weather will behave. It was in the 60s and 70s for a couple of weeks and then 25 degrees last night.

reed

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Re: Paste Tomatoes Project
« Reply #11 on: 2019-04-30, 03:02:03 AM »
My tomatoes have all been started, although I only have three breeding varieties in my apartment. The rest are being grown out by friends but they were all started around the same time. Thanks to Reed, I have Utah Heart as well and that, Plum Perfect and Plum Regal all have larger cotyledons than the other two random varieties I have. I'm not betting on that though, as it might be my growing setup that is causing the variation.
I hope the Utah Heart does good for you, it does well for us here in IN.
What does the longer cotyledons indicate?

esoteric_agriculture

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Re: Paste Tomatoes Project
« Reply #12 on: 2019-04-30, 04:05:43 PM »
Iím excited to read about this project. Itís great to have people working on breeding projects in a very similar climate to me, as Iím in Pennsylvania also. I have my own tomato projects I hope to start this year. Good luck with yours and keep us posted!! 👍🏻
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ImGrimmer

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Re: Paste Tomatoes Project
« Reply #13 on: 2019-05-15, 03:10:46 PM »
Plum Regal ......., pretty sure it is homozygous for Ph 2 and 3

Plum Regal is only homozygous for Ph 3
but Iron Lady is homozygous for Ph 2 and 3

Plum Regal did great for me last year. A big minus there were plants with very bland tasting fruits among them.

reed

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Re: Paste Tomatoes Project
« Reply #14 on: 2019-05-17, 06:21:50 AM »
Plum Regal is only homozygous for Ph 3
but Iron Lady is homozygous for Ph 2 and 3

Plum Regal did great for me last year. A big minus there were plants with very bland tasting fruits among them.

No, Plum Regal is not the best tasting tomato. Unless you rub it in olive oil and roll it around on a rack over the flames of a small wood fire.  Then mash them up with some garlic and herbs and call it sauce. Also I'v seen them mostly dry rather then rot on the vine and I want to develop a line that's easy to dry in the sun.