Author Topic: Making More OSSI Anthocyanin Dwarfs  (Read 350 times)

William Schlegel

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Making More OSSI Anthocyanin Dwarfs
« on: 2022-04-23, 09:46:18 AM »
So I recently got and planted seed today for Dwarf Mocha's Cherry. The only Anthocyanin dwarf in the north American portion of the Dwarf Tomato Project. Patrina has more in Australia that she made.

It occurs to me that Anthocyanin crosses with this dwarf Mocha's Cherry would be stable for Anthocyanin.

So you could make a series of logical Antho x Antho crosses to diversify the Antho dwarfs in North America.

You could cross Antho varieties with any OSSI dwarf but stabilization would take longer.

You could also cross this dwarf Mocha's cherry variety with any or all other dwarfs to make crosses that are immediately dwarf but would still need to segregate for anthocyanin.

Personally I have two non-dwarf Anthocyanin varieties I am working on and this tomato seems like a shortcut to a dwarf anythocyanin version. Also I think some of the spectacular anthocyanin varieties out there would make logical crosses. Like Brad's Atomic Grape.
« Last Edit: 2022-04-23, 03:16:29 PM by William S. »
Western Montana garden, glacial lake Missoula sediment lacustrian parent material and shallow 7" silty clay loam mollisoil topsoil sometimes with added sand in places. Zone 6A with 100 to 130 frost free days

William Schlegel

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Re: Making More OSSI Anthocyanin Dwarfs
« Reply #1 on: 2022-04-24, 12:11:37 AM »
Over the winter I crossed my MMS x BH F1 with Aztek micro dwarf. I've just harvested the seeds. I planted four and have the rest fernenting. However. I think I would like to plant the rest.

I inquired on a tomato breeding group on Facebook and Aztek should produce a range of dwarf sizes. That means I could be closer than I thought to making a Anthocyanin dwarf. It strikes me as possible that an cross to Dwarf Mocha's Cherry could be beneficial in terms of fixing the blue color and dwarf traits. Though problematic in terms of flesh color.

Another move I've already made is I've been putting one ossi regular leaf dwarf and one MMS or MMM F2 into each pot in a flat to set up crossing blocks as soon as planted out. I used a few exserted orange the same way with potato leaf dwarfs. Since MMS is antho and it's child MMM is antho though still segregating I could end up with a dwarf grex.
« Last Edit: 2022-04-24, 07:56:14 AM by William S. »
Western Montana garden, glacial lake Missoula sediment lacustrian parent material and shallow 7" silty clay loam mollisoil topsoil sometimes with added sand in places. Zone 6A with 100 to 130 frost free days

Greenie DeS

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Re: Making More OSSI Anthocyanin Dwarfs
« Reply #2 on: 2022-04-24, 11:43:52 AM »
That dwarf grex sounds fun.

Trouble with the micros is that it's so easy for them to be out-competed by normal dwarfs in a dense planting scenario.

William Schlegel

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Re: Making More OSSI Anthocyanin Dwarfs
« Reply #3 on: 2022-04-24, 11:56:48 AM »
Yeah, Micros are nice for indoors, but regular dwarfs are nice for outside. I have grown micros in the ground but without competition.
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Andrew Barney

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Re: Making More OSSI Anthocyanin Dwarfs
« Reply #4 on: 2022-04-25, 09:23:59 AM »
Are you planning on making yellow/orange dwarf and micros with anthocyanin? That could be cool. It seems many people are in agreement that the yellow and oranges taste better, perhaps the same thing as many other crops where lycopene  is slightly bitter??

William Schlegel

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Re: Making More OSSI Anthocyanin Dwarfs
« Reply #5 on: 2022-04-25, 09:49:49 AM »
Craig LeHoullier in his book makes some interesting statements about tomato flavor. I am actually growing a few of his top flavor picks to see what I think. He suggested somewhere that in a blind taste test some of the reds would have really good flavor. So this assumption that oranges and yellows are better flavored may not be a perfect one. Though I followed that assumption for at least several years.

I sort of regret not being more careful with some of the 2020 XL red seeds from the promiscuous project. I remember one of those having pretty amazing flavor- smooth no off tastes. I still have some seed I am sure but I think I would have to taste a lot of tomatoes to find it that perfect again.

I definitely think that I have had some good yellows and some good oranges. However, and I think this is important, it is also possible for yellows and oranges to have some off flavors. It may be the case too that off flavors are more distinct in yellows and oranges than in reds. The reds might have more of an ability to mask some flavors. I definitely have had some off flavors in some of the segregates from Indigo Kumquat that Mike sent me a few years back. I have also found a lot of off flavors in the big hill descended bicolors in the promiscuous project. I was too liberal in my seed saving in 2020 and found off flavors in most in 2021. We will see what that means for 2022 with the three good, flavored selections from the promiscuous project that I made in 2021.

That said, one of my main tomato breeding tools right now is the MMS and MMM project which is anthocyanin potato leaf bicolors. Then one of my all time current flavor selections is my 2021 selection of the promiscuous project that I found reminiscent of fuyu persimmon which is an orange bicolorI have already set up crossing blocks in the seedling trays between the OSSI dwarfs, the MMS/MMM and the fuyu persimmon reminiscent selection. So I am heading in that direction however it is more because I already have good flavored yellow and orange tomatoes that I want to keep working with.

One of my hopes with the OSSI dwarfs and the now 16 varieties I have acquired of them is to add a larger color palette of potential dwarfs. Sort of mimicking the start of the dwarf tomato project when Patrina made those eight initial crosses. So if I end up with a dwarf crossing block with the Antho MMS/MMM as I am currently planning, it should result in a diversity of colors of tomato including orange, green when ripe, yellow, chocolate, and maybe some red which would start to become apparent in the F2 and F3 of the grex. Though controlled crosses would be ideal in terms of making it less likely to accidentally select out good material in early generations and I do hope to make some. I have some older Dwarf Gloria's Treat larger in one-gallon pots and I hope to cross them with the MMS/MMM project before out planting them. However time to out planting is now roughly three weeks and no blooms yet. That cross one of the main outcomes would be to add anthocyanin to a bicolor potato leaf dwarf. Though you could also get that outcome by crossing Dwarf Gloria's Treat with Dwarf Mocha's Cherry or by crossing MMS with Dwarf Mocha's Cherry. I think I need to grow a few dwarfs for next winter's tomato crossing grow out.
« Last Edit: 2022-04-25, 09:59:24 AM by William S. »
Western Montana garden, glacial lake Missoula sediment lacustrian parent material and shallow 7" silty clay loam mollisoil topsoil sometimes with added sand in places. Zone 6A with 100 to 130 frost free days

William Schlegel

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Re: Making More OSSI Anthocyanin Dwarfs
« Reply #6 on: 2022-04-25, 03:57:08 PM »
Just one that I just remembered about. There is a dwarf bred by Tom Wagner I suppose called Dwarf Shadow Boxing. It is not OSSI but still that same Antho x Antho crossing would work. However, it is kind of plum shaped red and striped. https://renaissancefarms.org/product/dwarf-shadow-boxing-tomato/

There might be other dwarf Anthocyanin tomatoes out there. Here are two micro dwarfs.

https://heritageseedmarket.com/index.php/product/inkspot/

https://heritageseedmarket.com/index.php/product/tartufo/

All seem to be red so far but still as long as one parent is dwarf that can be recovered in the F2. I guess my point here is that the more traits you want the closer you can start with to them the easier it is going to be to get to your goal. Though I don't think that I will be ordering any of these for breeding material because a simple Dwarf Mocha's Cherry x Brad's Atomic Grape cross would have more to offer.





Western Montana garden, glacial lake Missoula sediment lacustrian parent material and shallow 7" silty clay loam mollisoil topsoil sometimes with added sand in places. Zone 6A with 100 to 130 frost free days