Author Topic: Homegrown Goodness Forum  (Read 1136 times)

ImGrimmer

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Homegrown Goodness Forum
« on: 2019-02-08, 12:06:09 AM »
I notice more and more discussion move to OSSI forum. There is lot of interesting stuff on Homegrown Goodness.
Would it be an idea to save or move old discussions to OSSI forum? Would it be possible/ legal?

Walt

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Re: Homegrown Goodness Forum
« Reply #1 on: 2019-02-08, 07:13:17 AM »
I have been thinking about it too.
I'll certainly be saving some threads to a flash drive.  But Like everyone, my time is limited, and I'll never get it all saved.  If several people each saved a portion, it could all be saved.
Or someone may know a faster way to save it than I do.

ImGrimmer

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Re: Homegrown Goodness Forum
« Reply #2 on: 2019-02-08, 07:25:39 AM »
It might be possible via "waybackmachine.org" to do an backup. But you can save only a single subpage at once.
It might be time consuming. A standalone like the old citrus forum would be best.

bill

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Re: Homegrown Goodness Forum
« Reply #3 on: 2019-02-08, 09:45:41 PM »
This has been discussed quite a bit, but it is complicated.  It would require the owner of the board to upgrade to the new Proboards service.  It would then be possible to get a backup of the database, which could be converted.  The technical part isn't too difficult, but the human part appears to be.

Proboards doesn't drop boards though, so HG will probably continue to exist indefinitely.  I suggest just linking to the relevant threads and continuing the discussion here.

Carol Deppe

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Re: Homegrown Goodness Forum
« Reply #4 on: 2019-02-09, 10:36:02 AM »
Most forums actually take ownership of what you post to them as part of the use terms. So your writing in your posts is their property, not yours. They actually own the legal copyright. This means you cant legally lift even your own posts and repost them elsewhere without begging the forum owner for permission to use your own work. And he/she/it has no real reason to grant such permission or even bother responding unless you are offering serious money. For a writer, this really stinks, as you cant incorporate your forum writing into books, mag articles, blogs, or other work. Furthermore, once you've published enough on a forum, the forum owner could actually publish a whole book of your work, owned by, alterred any way they wish, and benefiting just them.

There are no such copyright-grabbing terms associated with the Open Source Plant Breeding Forum. This is no accident.  ;)

« Last Edit: 2019-02-09, 10:41:44 AM by Carol Deppe »

William S.

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Re: Homegrown Goodness Forum
« Reply #5 on: 2019-02-09, 10:53:50 AM »
Most forums actually take ownership of what you post to them as part of the use terms. So your writing in your posts is their property, not yours. They actually own the legal copyright. This means you cant legally lift even your own posts and repost them elsewhere without begging the forum owner for permission to use your own work. And he/she/it has no real reason to grant such permission or even bother responding unless you are offering serious money. For a writer, this really stinks, as you cant incorporate your forum writing into books, mag articles, blogs, or other work. Furthermore, once you've published enough on a forum, the forum owner could actually publish a whole book of your work, owned by, alterred any way they wish, and benefiting just them.

There are no such copyright-grabbing terms associated with the Open Source Plant Breeding Forum. This is no accident.  ;)

That's awful. Makes me want to systematically delete old posts if possible...
Western Montana garden, glacial lake Missoula sediment lacustrian clay mollisoil sometimes with added sand in places. Zone 6A

Carol Deppe

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Re: Homegrown Goodness Forum
« Reply #6 on: 2019-02-10, 10:06:13 AM »
Yeah. It IS awful. If you are a professional writer or might like to publish a book someday, I would suggest sticking as much as possible with forums and other venues that, like OSSI, dont grab copyright to your writing.

Letters to the editor of newspapers and mags also normally grab copyrights. If I write a letter to the NYTimes, for example, the terms include that they can edit or cut any way they want, and my letter is their property and they own the copyright. That means I cant use that writing in my own books, magazine articles, or website without their permission. One can, of course, rewrite the info. But its nice to be able to reuse pieces of stuff.

With respect to mags--these will often have contracts for the naive that buy "all rights". That, too, means you can no longer use your own work without their permission, which they may or may not give, and which can cost serious money. But contracts are negotiable. I always cross out such sections and substitute language giving them what they actually need rather than all rights. What they need is usually non-exclusive one-time right to publish the article in their magazine. If the mag has a website, they also need non-exclusive right to use the article there. If the mag is paying serious money, they also usually expect that you not publish elsewhere for a certain amount of time after they have published. But you need to include a cutoff date, which you usually have to add. That is, if they have not published before a certain date, the contract is cancelled, they lose all rights to publish, and you dont repay anything.

Be forewarned that even if the editor has told you that what they want is one-time non-exclusive rights, when you get the contract it may be for all rights or worse. (Worse such as grabbing the cooyright or claiming the writing is a work-for-hire.) This is usually because the mag is part of a conglomerate, and these are usually as exploitative toward writers as they can get away with. And the mag may be required to send out these contracts. You have to be savvy enough to not sign them. Just email the editor with a reminder as to what you agreed to in your email or phone discussion, and giving your proposed changes to bring the contract into conformity with that.

spacecase0

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Re: Homegrown Goodness Forum
« Reply #7 on: 2019-04-08, 09:12:24 AM »
I notice more and more discussion move to OSSI forum. There is lot of interesting stuff on Homegrown Goodness.
Would it be an idea to save or move old discussions to OSSI forum? Would it be possible/ legal?
very possible to archive a website
there is a program called Wget ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wget )
I have archived many websites with it.
and the command would be something like this
wget -mpckr --user-agent="" -e robots=off --wait 2 www.example.com

when archiving a web forum like the one you are thinking, it might take a week or so to get the entire thing, so be ready to leave your computer on a long time.

and if you just want it not to vanish at some point,
archive.org has already saved a copy of the forum
you can get to it from this link
https://web.archive.org/web/20180317101312/http://alanbishop.proboards.com/

Oxbow Farm

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Re: Homegrown Goodness Forum
« Reply #8 on: 2019-04-08, 11:52:21 AM »
People have tried scraping HG before.  Proboards has measures in place to block your IP when they notice the scrape occuring. 

spacecase0

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Re: Homegrown Goodness Forum
« Reply #9 on: 2019-04-08, 03:04:49 PM »
People have tried scraping HG before.  Proboards has measures in place to block your IP when they notice the scrape occuring.
handy to know.
you can randomize the timing to make it harder for them to detect you...
but it seems like it would be better to just use the copy at archive.org if it is ever needed. (somehow they managed to get a copy)
so far it does not seem like that forum is going anywhere, easy to go look up things if needed.
My favorite thread over there is the seed companies listed by MJC

reed

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Re: Homegrown Goodness Forum
« Reply #10 on: 2019-04-13, 03:56:05 AM »
According to the ProBoards terms of service page they do not take ownership of people's content so that's good. As far as saving the content I just copy pasted the stuff I may want to look back at. I actually printed some, not a lot. Just parts where someone explained things about genetics and inheritance that I might want to reference again.

Carol Deppe

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Re: Homegrown Goodness Forum
« Reply #11 on: 2019-04-25, 10:17:55 PM »
That's good to know.

If Homegrown Goodness terms of use don't take copyright of the posts, however, copyright of the posts belong to the owners of the posts. So you still wouldn't have the right to use or repost any of their posts without the permission of the relevant authors.


reed

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Re: Homegrown Goodness Forum
« Reply #12 on: 2019-04-26, 03:39:39 AM »
That's good to know.

If Homegrown Goodness terms of use don't take copyright of the posts, however, copyright of the posts belong to the owners of the posts. So you still wouldn't have the right to use or repost any of their posts without the permission of the relevant authors.

Yes, that's the case. Just ask my 7th grade English teacher from about 1970,using someone's work without permission is called plagiarism as I recall. To use someone's printed material she required something like this  "quote, quote, quote" (Book Title, Author, Publisher, Copyright Date) and then only for small snippets, not more than a couple sentences.  If your paper had large amounts of info from multiple other sources or if you paraphrase from other sources then foot notes are required.

I don't know the formal rules for electronic writing; I think all the attribution is basically the same but you can also often include a link so the reader can easily access the source.

Do they not teach this stuff anymore or do people just not care?
« Last Edit: 2019-04-26, 03:52:20 AM by reed »

Carol Deppe

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Re: Homegrown Goodness Forum
« Reply #13 on: 2019-04-26, 02:50:41 PM »
The copyright rules for writing on the internet are exactly the same as for writing on paper.

I think there are more violations partly because writing on the internet seems less important, more casual, and more ephemeral that, say writing in a book. And often is. There was actually the same problem with letters, where the recipient also felt (wrongfully) free to copy the letter or sections of it and send it to others. But actually, the writing in letters, too, is also automatically copyrighted, and the copyright belongs to the writer, though the physical letter belongs to the recipient. However, it is just way easier to copy and share writing on the internet than writing in people's letters.

In addition, sometimes people care about the copyright on their internet/website/email writing, and want you to get permission, or link to them instead of copying. But many people don't care, or care only with some material. And being asked for permission when you don't care and the writing involved is not a financial proposition is just a nuisance. And declaring such things public domain doesn't necessarily fit, because that removes ALL restrictions--meaning someone can claim your work as their own without having broken any laws. And some people are willing for their work to be used for free by non-profits, but not commerically, etc.

Creative Commons licenses, a major advance, were created to deal with such situations. Those of you who have looked at the OSSI fight songs that I published in the OSSI on-line magazine Free the Seed! might have noticed that they carry Creative Commons licenses. Specifically, the CC-BY licenses, which allows use of any sort, commercial or noncommercial, and allows modification; the only restriction is Attribution, that is, the user has to credit the work to me. That way whoever wants to use the songs can do so without messing with getting permission. My books have ordinary copyrights, and must have in order for a publisher to be willing to publish them. However, I'm not a professional song-writer, and my songs are not a financial sort of thing. The CC-BY license is perfect for this situation. If you want people to be able to use your stuff without your permission, check out the Creative Commons website.


William S.

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Re: Homegrown Goodness Forum
« Reply #14 on: 2019-04-26, 08:25:48 PM »
https://osseeds.org/song-pledged-seed-is-marching-on/


https://osseeds.org/song-ossi-can-can/

Could not find any youtube videos of them being performed.

There is this song about moss identification  though which I enjoy :
https://youtu.be/ExIO0pb8nN8
Western Montana garden, glacial lake Missoula sediment lacustrian clay mollisoil sometimes with added sand in places. Zone 6A