Author Topic: Funding Blight Resistance Breeding in Heirloom Tomatoes  (Read 8789 times)

William S.

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Re: Funding Blight Resistance Breeding in Heirloom Tomatoes
« Reply #30 on: 2019-01-09, 10:43:33 PM »
110 dwarf varieties! I wonder if any of them have late blight resistance bred in? Are they new on the OSSI list? I remember seeing just the 22 regular tomatoes.

I haven't tried any of them yet, my understanding being that they are mainly for the space limited? I'm not particularly space limited so have been growing determinates mainly because they are early. Adaptive Seeds calls Sweet Cherriette an Indeterminate Dwarf. Wonder how early they are?
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Diane Whitehead

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Re: Funding Blight Resistance Breeding in Heirloom Tomatoes
« Reply #31 on: 2019-01-09, 11:13:41 PM »
I've just bought seeds of Ferline F1 from the U.K. which is supposed to be delicious, and was blight resistant in recent trials.  I don't know how recent, as information I have about it is from 2011.

So, do I forget about buying Iron Lady and instead use Ferline, plus resistant ones I regularly grow, like Skykomish, Legend, and Chernomor?  Crossing them with a lot of the new dwarfs would be an interesting project for me.
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Carol Deppe

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Re: Funding Blight Resistance Breeding in Heirloom Tomatoes
« Reply #32 on: 2019-01-10, 04:30:22 AM »
110 dwarf varieties! I wonder if any of them have late blight resistance bred in? Are they new on the OSSI list? I remember seeing just the 22 regular tomatoes.

I haven't tried any of them yet, my understanding being that they are mainly for the space limited? I'm not particularly space limited so have been growing determinates mainly because they are early. Adaptive Seeds calls Sweet Cherriette an Indeterminate Dwarf. Wonder how early they are?
Hmmm. I see the dwarf tomatoes arent found by looking under tomatoes on the ossi seed page. You have to look under breeder, The Dwarf Tomato Project. A huge flaw that makes the dwarfs invisible. I'll mention to the person handling this aspect of the website.

There were 68 dwarf varieties. We just Pledged another 25.

Note that Patrina Nuske-Small, one co-director of the project, is in Australia, so many of these varieties are also available in Australia.

Dwarfs are compact indeterminates. That is, they are compact because they have short internodes. They have a characteristic rugose leaf texture. They usually grow 3 to 4 feet high. They are usually staked. They can be any maturity from early to late, depending on variety. Craig LeHoullier is writing a whole book about them, and about the Dwarf Tomato Project. Yes, the big advantage of the dwarves is good flavor on compact plants for people with small gardens or who grow in containers. The determinates usually don't have prime flavor, apparently because the leaf to fruit ratio isnt high enough. Dwarfs can give you compact plants with true heirloom quality flavor.

The Dwarf Tomato Project got its start through gardeners interacting on a tomato forum, by the way.

A number of Ossi Partner Seed Companies carry some of these dwarves. But Victory Seeds has by far the largest collection. I believe all but 9 or so that will be introduced next year. And Victory has a whole subsection in their on line catalog just for dwarf tomatoes, so they are easy to find.


As far as I know, none of the dwarf tomatoes have any late blight resistance. So it would be very helpful if we started crossing them appropriately.


« Last Edit: 2019-01-10, 04:50:07 AM by Carol Deppe »

William S.

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Re: Funding Blight Resistance Breeding in Heirloom Tomatoes
« Reply #33 on: 2019-01-10, 01:17:39 PM »
One thing I don't quite know how to do is work the back cross without the genetic testing OR the presence of blight.

My thought instead is just grow out the F2 of the straight cross, properly dry the seed and freeze it until the blight shows up. Or mail some of it to a blight stricken friend who agrees to send back seed from healthy plants.

I am also wondering how to incorporate the blight resistance into my previous plans. Like I want to cross Coyote and Sweet Cherriette. Instead I could perhaps cross both with Iron Lady and cross the F1s with each other to produce an F2 population that had some of all three.
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Andrew Barney

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Re: Funding Blight Resistance Breeding in Heirloom Tomatoes
« Reply #34 on: 2019-01-10, 08:04:42 PM »
There is a very interesting thread on Tomatoville,    'Mountain Gem' F1 hybrid tomato,  started by RandyG,   Dr. Randy Gardner
from North Carolina, who bred a lot of the tomatoes with "mountain" in their names.

I'm ordering these two right now based on flavor!! The podcast interview was amazing!! Modern resistance + heirloom flavor!

https://www.talkingbiotechpodcast.com/024-biotech-tomato-breeding-social-media-on-the-farm/

http://old-hos.ifas.ufl.edu/kleeweb/newcultivars.html

https://m.facebook.com/Garden-Gem-Tomatoes-574251062717213/

Quote
? As of today, they are still not commercially available. But we want you to try them out. So here’s the deal. If you will donate $10 to support new variety development, we’ll send you packets with 15 seeds each of Garden Treasure, Garden Gem and our newest variety that we call our "W" hybrid. The W Hybrid has been shown to have a much higher than normal lycopene content.

EDIT: oh, these might be different than the 'Mountain Gem' above.  I guess I saw the word "gem" and thought they were the same.
« Last Edit: 2019-01-10, 08:08:20 PM by Andrew Barney »

William S.

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Re: Funding Blight Resistance Breeding in Heirloom Tomatoes
« Reply #35 on: 2021-11-18, 12:14:41 PM »
I just used a gift certificate and ordered eight dwarf ossi pledged varieties from victory seeds including Dwarf Galen's yellow, dwarf desert star, and dwarf orange cream. Will probably cross them straight away with an exserted stigma strain. These three are potato leaf which could lead to a potato leaf exserted rugose leaf which would segregate really nicely when crossed with non dwarf regular leaf strains.

It has occurred to me that it makes logical sense to use OSSI pledged material in tomato breeding. There are the 132 or so varieties mentioned in this thread to choose from. Though checking OSSI there are now 147 OSSI tomatoes. It somewhat automatically confers ossi status to the resulting offspring.

I also feel like the dwarf tomato project could benefit from Carol's disease resistance introgression plan with PH2 and PH3 from Iron Lady, it might be an easier path to follow because the F2 generation would have OSSI status from the OSSI parent. So no need to go through the whole OSSI process for each F2?! And with at least 147 pledged tomatoes that could keep us busy a long time. With 123 of those tomatoes dwarf and 24 non-dwarf.

Also a fun way to do wild species parent breeding and make the resulting wild and crazy segregating crosses widely shared is to just include an existing OSSI parent. That should make the resulting segregating population shareable as descended from OSSI stock.

To date my OSSI parent has been Joseph's Big Hill so it will be fun to branch out a little from that.
« Last Edit: 2021-11-20, 12:01:03 PM by William S. »
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Roland

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Re: Funding Blight Resistance Breeding in Heirloom Tomatoes
« Reply #36 on: 2021-11-19, 11:32:15 AM »
i like it u start breeding with ph2 and ph3 genes
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William S.

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Re: Funding Blight Resistance Breeding in Heirloom Tomatoes
« Reply #37 on: 2022-01-02, 04:58:17 PM »
I'm open to suggestions. However, I plan to come here and invite wide participation as soon as I have F2s of appropriate backcrosses to distribute. I've already got the first cross of Iron Lady to 15 or 20 heirlooms.

Once we have that first batch of foundation material, it will be easier to do more. For example, if I can give you the F2 of a pink offspring that is 3/4 Pruden's purple and carries a useful repertoire of disease resistance, people can use that to cross to additional pink varieties rather than crossing them to Iron Lady or some other commercial source of resistance genes.

But nobody says you have to wait around until I have material distribute. Why not get in there and do some crosses and backcrosses etc yourself, with your favorite varieties?

15 to 20 heirloom x Iron Lady crosses is alot. More than the eight crosses that launched the dwarf tomato project.
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ThomatoGarden

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Re: Funding Blight Resistance Breeding in Heirloom Tomatoes
« Reply #38 on: 2022-02-09, 07:51:30 AM »
Why would you breed with Iron Lady?

You get 100% Ph2/Ph3 but the LB Resistance is 50% worse than Mountain Magic, to increase this you need years of selection.
Source:https://www.vegetables.cornell.edu/pest-management/disease-factsheets/disease-resistant-vegetable-varieties/evaluation-of-late-blight-resistant-tomato-varieties/

With Mountain Magic you get 25 %  Ph2/Ph3 Resistance , 1 year trial with enough seeds should be enough.

And better taste etc.

Is my math wrong ? Help me understand!

William S.

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Re: Funding Blight Resistance Breeding in Heirloom Tomatoes
« Reply #39 on: 2022-02-09, 09:06:35 AM »
That is an interesting point, and perhaps a good point.

Iron Lady F1 is the tomato recommended by Carol Deppe in her book https://www.amazon.com/Tao-Vegetable-Gardening-Cultivating-Tomatoes/dp/1603584870 which was published in 2015 now seven years ago.

She suggests in the book and earlier here when she was active on the forum that Iron Lady is great because it at the time was the only PH2 and PH3 homozygous tomato currently available. That last may still be true, however it may not matter as much as she supposed at that time.

I was rereading the book a few weeks back and I noticed that what she actually recommended at the time was cutting the percentage of Iron Lady F1 down to 25%! Back crossing to the same heirloom twice. She thought Iron Lady F1 a terrible flavored tomato with the only feature she was interested in PH2 and PH3 homozygosity.

I still think Iron Lady F1 is interesting from the perspective of someone in a region that is not yet hit very hard by late blight. The last outbreak here was in 2010. To breed for late blight resistance a homozygous source is potentially very useful.

Much of Carol's perspective in the book is that of someone who does not yet have that bad of late blight but expects that late blight is coming and going to increase in severity and frequency. Basically, the belief that gardeners here in the U.S. will soon be in the position that gardeners in the U.K. and Europe already are. So she named a variety commonly available in the U.S. that would work well in 2015.

I guess similar arguments to yours are why I expanded my late blight collection a little this winter to include Galahad F1 and Purple Zebra F1. I think these tomatoes are already much closer to Carol's dream. Late Blight resistant tomatoes that taste more like heirlooms. I suspect that they could simply be dehybridized to produce decent open pollinated varieties. Also, with only one cross from the F1 you might be able to get a good, flavored tomato with other heirloom traits bringing you to the same 25% level but eliminating the need to back cross because you are starting out with good flavor.

Also, reading the accounts of you UK and mainland European gardeners on this forum it suggests to me that when and if late blight becomes worse here that we will still be able to work on the issue after that becomes the case. That in point of fact Carol's premise that we must do this work before it becomes critical is perhaps not true. Especially since we can still raise tomatoes under cover in a greenhouse or like my current winter generation in the basement.

Your referenced thought that Iron Lady F1 is not actually that good at blight resistance despite its homozygosity for the two traits is interesting and seems to be true at least in Table 3 of the Cornell document you linked. Breeding for PH2 and PH3 alone may not be enough. Those heirlooms with good resistance for other less definable reasons are probably good candidates for breeding for that reason. Matt's wild cherry, yellow current, and yellow pear are among those heirlooms we mentioned on another thread.

If the idea is ultimately to make LB resistant x Heirloom crosses and make them available to gardeners to grow out if Iron Lady F1 is such an unpalatable addition to the gene pool that it would keep people with existing late blight problems from growing out the crosses it would seem that it is counterproductive to make those crosses except perhaps to put in the freezer against a future late blight ridden day.

One thought I had here in this thread is making those crosses with existing OSSI tomatoes like the many OSSI dwarfs and Joseph's Big Hill. That would make the entire project OSSI descended and then the freely shared seed could be evaluated and bred to its final form in many different gardens under the OSSI umbrella.

Though yet another mental push back I have on this idea of abandoning Iron Lady F1 is that I have been involved now for some years with growing out the various generations of the unpalatable wild species crosses made by Joseph and acquired by Andrew of domestic tomatoes with Solanum habrochaites and Solanum penellii. It seems to me like bad flavored tomatoes are easily overcome by crossing to good, flavored tomatoes and then selecting for good, flavored tomatoes. This is also a push back against Carol's original idea of back crossing the Iron Lady percentage down to 25%. If Iron lady is a good source of homozygous PH2 and PH3 we've already cut that down to heterozygosity with one outcross. Why not simply select for good flavor and heirloom traits from the first cross without backcrossing? Iron Lady's flavor is a little boring but it is no Solanum habrochaites.

Also and this is just missing data that we could get relatively easily: What is the flavor potential for Iron Lady F2 segregates? If in the F2 and subsequent generations Iron Lady segregates for better flavor but maintains its homozygosity than there is potential for breeding with an improved flavored version just through allowing it to segregate or maybe even developing an OP line with better flavor from it. Also what is the influence of a cross? If a cross with an heirloom has much better flavor in the F1 then Iron Lady F1 x Heirloom/OP crossing might be surprisingly productive. By growing out my packet of 100 or so Iron Lady F2 seeds I could answer the first question and by making some test crosses say with some of the OSSI varieties I could potentially answer the second. As far as a third question about why some other varieties might have better resistance, I think that could also be answered with test crosses to such things as Yellow Pear, Geranium Kiss, Stupice, Yellow Current, and Matt's Wild Cherry. Though the latter is not something I can evaluate considering that the last outbreak here was in 2010.
 
« Last Edit: 2022-02-09, 10:01:23 AM by William S. »
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ThomatoGarden

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Re: Funding Blight Resistance Breeding in Heirloom Tomatoes
« Reply #40 on: 2022-02-09, 10:01:48 AM »
Ah, ok i understand.

As LB is not so horrable in US, as it is here its difficult to select the
most LB Resistant Plants every year. Therefore its easier to select for Taste first,
and secure LB Resistance through backcrossing. OK.
(LB Hits here very Year, earlier or later is the only difference.)

With this Method of Selecting and Backcrossing, can you include other sources of
Lb Resistance throughout the process, like Matt's Wild Cherry etc?

Another Source:https://revistas.usac.edu.gt/index.php/cytes/article/download/672/562/3165

William S.

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Re: Funding Blight Resistance Breeding in Heirloom Tomatoes
« Reply #41 on: 2022-02-09, 10:26:29 AM »
I think including a naturally resistant tomato such as Matt's Wild Cherry in Carol Deppe's original scheme (crossing Heirlooms with Iron Lady F1) would make great sense. It would also make sense in any modification of that scheme. For instance, crossing Purple Zebra F1 with Matt's Wild Cherry.

It also raises the question just in terms of the well documented cross histories of the Dwarf Tomato Project- if any of the known higher resistance heirlooms were used in any of the Dwarf Tomato Project dwarfs. https://www.victoryseeds.com/dwarf-tomato-project.html 

I just looked through a bit and I didn't see any obvious suspects like Matt's Wild Cherry, Yellow Pear, Yellow Currant, or Geranium Kiss. I wonder if anyone has found any blight resistance in the Dwarf Tomato Project or any other OSSI tomato? On the similar European project https://www.opensourceseeds.org/en/Find%20varieties there are two Sunviva and Vivagrande amongst three total tomatoes where the U.S. site has 147 tomatoes but none that I know to have resistance (though this could be hiding in the details or could be revealed with trials).

Another thought regarding Carol's scheme is that the total number of crosses needed to achieve a good selection of heirloom type tomatoes can be modeled well by the Dwarf Tomato Project. In the current version of Victory seeds dwarf project page I just counted ~43 cross families so about 43 crosses to get the currently available diversity of heirloom type dwarfs originating from that project with some of those being subsequent crosses. Though they started with many fewer crosses in their first years.
« Last Edit: 2022-02-09, 12:21:40 PM by William S. »
Western Montana garden, glacial lake Missoula sediment lacustrian parent material and shallow 7" silty clay loam mollisoil topsoil sometimes with added sand in places. Zone 6A with 100 to 130 frost free days