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Tomatoes / Re: Breeding with wild tomato species
« Last post by William S. on Yesterday at 05:25:45 AM »
I looked at my galapagos and there are now five germinates, three of them new. This is the furry fruited one. Has white fly resistance according to Andrew's blog post. I would kind of like to plant more with the bleach treatment so they will germinate fast and evenly.

Cheesemanii is more abundant and germinated faster and more evenly without treatment.

A experiment might be to plant them in an isolation garden with a yellow exserted such as Big Hill. Big Hill would make a obvious F1 and a fun F2. Obvious F1 is useful given my tendency to help transfer pollen but not to emasculate. Especially with the galapagense that F2 will be intriguing.. I think I will combine the three obligate yellow accessions in one block (R18, S35-36, and XA1/A2 G2) and devote one or two of the smaller isolation gardens to this. 

Edit: or I may keep them in the greenhouse. That would save a lot of work for a first cross. Might even be able to emasculate because emasculation works for me inside and in the greenhouse but so far not outside. Tends to dry the flowers out and I loose them in the field.

That also would open the possibility of crossing LA2329 with the galapagose easily because they would all be in the greenhouse together. Which might do nothing, but they are two widely separate accessions both with arthropod resistences so there could be some interesting synergy there and the result of it would be fuzzy.

It would be nice to keep S35-36 seperate for flavor improvement. R18 has too few individuals though for S allele health so I think it should go in with XA1/A2
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Cucurbits / Re: Tetsukabuto croce
« Last post by Adrian on Yesterday at 12:42:02 AM »
I have create a monster!
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Tomatoes / Re: Breeding with wild tomato species
« Last post by Joseph Lofthouse on 2021-04-18, 11:39:33 PM »
I took a detailed look at tomato nomenclature a few months ago.

The most startling thing that I discovered is that the species most commonly called "Galapagos Tomato" is Solanum cheesmaniae. I have about 8 seeds of that species. If I plant them, I'll go all in, and risk loosing the species from my garden.

I have about 100 seeds of Solanum galapagense, which is the species that common sense would indicate should be called "Galapagos". Oh well! I have a pot of seedlings growing. As a result of this discussion, I'll plant more.
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Tomatoes / Re: Breeding with wild tomato species
« Last post by Andrew Barney on 2021-04-18, 10:36:12 PM »
At my place, Solanum galapagense has tiny fruits, with few seeds per fruit, and few fruits per small plant. I could aspire to grow enough seed for close collaborators, but not enough for a seed company. Although, I have grown it enough generations that the seed doesn't require scarification, and it survives outside in the native soil.

Honestly, just that alone may make your efforts worthwhile. Even if getting a lot of seed is problematic, which at this point still is for me as well.

Similar to the domestication / selection for your strain of the pure S. peruvianum.

I have not yet had luck replicating any of these qualities with the wild tomatoes in my garden, but I also have more or less been practicing crop rotation. If I were to dedicate more efforts to the tomatoes I might make more rapid progress. Which, maybe I should and maybe I will. Up till now my crop efforts have mainly been with colorful peas (this year may mark the most advanced trial / selection of colorful pea varieties for me yet!) and watermelon. It is so hard to choose just one crop to focus on when so many different ones interest me.

There is something to be said though for dedicating time / effort to a project that others are also dedicating time / effort to at the same time. In many ways this ethos is the heart of what it means to be open source. It is not so much having access to the source material freely and easily, though that certainly applies and is the first step. But rather that when others collaborate it can (and often does) speed up research and development by several factors and at the same time reduce research costs. Applying this to plant breeding is partly new and partly old, but very interesting.
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Asters / Re: Wild Lettuce Crosses?
« Last post by Garrett Schantz on 2021-04-18, 10:14:58 PM »
Lactuca virosa resembles some of the L. sativa x serriola hybrids it seems like.
L. virosa has spines on the leaves like serriola does, it also has very smooth leaves. They can also get a sort of redness on the outer portion of the leaves.

First image I am posting is of a L. virosa plant that I found outside earlier. Didn't taste much bitterness, which is nice. Also not as many spines as usual... Suppose I will save seed.

Dunno what the next two images are. Pretty sure that they are a North American lettuce. They have a bad - bitter lettuce taste. They also have some small spines. Leaves aren't smooth like serriola / virosa - bit of a fuzz there.

There were very large/ tall plants in a wooded area by the house last year with similar leaves to these. I might inspect them more closely this year. I don't remember the leaves being exactly like this, even on the young plants though. Then again the plants that I took images of were all next to each other - so it could possibly be a hybrid. Though I doubt it. I would rather not have plants of that size appear in this particular area anyway.


https://extension.umass.edu/landscape/weeds/lactuca-biennis
There are some other images online of L. biennis that look different than the one showed on this website - last year's woodland plant looked like this.

Last image is just a leaf comparison.
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Tomatoes / Re: Breeding with wild tomato species
« Last post by William S. on 2021-04-18, 09:24:45 PM »
That domestic galapagense is a nice yellow with good flavor and super early. It would be interesting to have it tested genetically. It would be a neat trick to cross it with the real galapagense and cheesemanii. Also Coyote would be an interesting choice I think it has a lot of pimpinillifolium in it.

Joseph has done a fairly good job of convincing me to not grow red tomatoes. Still a few. My exserted tiger is not yellow yet. The yellow ones so far aren't exserted. Still hoping for a yellow one. Maybe someone will buy a packet and find one that was hiding in recession. Going to cross it to something yellow and exserted.
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Tomatoes / Re: Breeding with wild tomato species
« Last post by Joseph Lofthouse on 2021-04-18, 08:15:47 PM »

My tomato breeding efforts end up selecting for yellow/orange fruits because of the amazing flavor, and for determinate because of the quick early productivity.

Therefore, I am selecting against the red indeterminate tomatoes that are highly popular. Perhaps other people, in other climates will work on those types.

At my place, Solanum galapagense has tiny fruits, with few seeds per fruit, and few fruits per small plant. I could aspire to grow enough seed for close collaborators, but not enough for a seed company. Although, I have grown it enough generations that the seed doesn't require scarification, and it survives outside in the native soil.

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Tomatoes / Re: Breeding with wild tomato species
« Last post by William S. on 2021-04-18, 07:55:55 PM »
When I was doing plant tissue culture alot back in 2009-11 I used a 10% bleach for one minute protocol followed by a H202 minute followed by sterile water rinse. This 30 minute 50% bleach TGRC protocol must soften the seed coat!

For Rubus a H202 rinse may be enough to short circuit the 2 years down to one. I have a wild Rubus ideas patch in the back yard that took two years to germinate. Then some folks in the nursery told me to use the hydrogen peroxide, still haven't propagated more rubus (this would be early 2000's) Check the native plant network's propagation protocol database for duration.

I would feel like I would need to grow an ounce of seed to sell or share on EFN probably take 100 plants or more unless I could get them bigger than in 2019. I don't plan to isolate them either. Would be neat to find a chance hybrid but I suspect they have more potential as pollen parents. Though maybe, it really doesn't take much seed to do some sharing. There aren't that many of us wild tomato enthusiasts. One of the things I learned last year is that one ounce of tomato seed is enough for most tomato varieties. It isn't really that much. One great big plant might almost be enough. Except my 2019 plants of these were tiny. Had a lot more seeds than I planted though in the few fruits!

It was 2019 I grew that big penellii hybrid you sent one seed of. The offspring from it is an interesting seed packet I would like to grow again. Maybe next year. I'll probably scale back my LA2329 next year as if all goes well I'll have plenty of seed to share and years worth of seed. Then maybe I can rotate out some other things.
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Tomatoes / Re: Breeding with wild tomato species
« Last post by Andrew Barney on 2021-04-18, 06:45:48 PM »
Yeah, I agree.

It's nice because in a way by sharing seed but also each one of us focusing on different aspects of the main overall project allows for both hedging of bets in case of one garden's crop failures, but also allows diverse focus which may each be either a genetic dead end or a wonderful cross or segregation or wonderful discovery.

For example, last year my one seed of the alternate pennellii hybrid strain failed, but you were able to grow it to tern and save seed.

This year I hope at the very least to make inroads to the peruvianum hybrids and I am already excited after planting the seed!

But yes, If either or both of us are able to save seed from the pure cheesmaniae and galapagense i think we should share it with the experimental farm network. Especially since there are false cherry tomatoes out there (some which may indeed have cheesmaniae heritage) being sold and labeled as Solanum cheesmaniae when true S. cheesmaniae has much smaller fruits and much much smaller seeds. That is not to say that the hybrids are not tastier and/or better than the original species, but people should at least know what they are growing and not fall victim to snake oil salesmen.

Speaking of a galapagense hybrid.... A few years back I had a plant of an self-incompatible F2 pennellii hybrid I was growing inside. I was able to successfully pollinate some fruits with S. galapagense pollen and fruits started forming. Sadly due to some neglegence on my part I accidentally broke off the stem with a fruit that was fairly far along but not far enough. I would like to repeat that experiment some time.

If nothing else, the bleach treatment should at least clean the seed of pathogens and should help seedling survival that way. But it is possible it helps germination also by eating away at the seed coat. I have wondered if the exact same method could be used on raspberry seeds instead of the common sulfuric acid method. I have some seedlings that have sprouted this week of Rubus bartonianus and Rubus leucodermis that were planted not last summer, but the summer before. I used only mechanical scarification, and while it seems to have worked it needed another year of stratification it seems.

I planted seeds of some of the newer plentiflor tomatoes from the Kapulers. They sound very interesting as they are supposed to be similar to the centerflor cherry tomatoes, but more of a larger salad size tomato.
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Tomatoes / Re: Breeding with wild tomato species
« Last post by William S. on 2021-04-18, 02:58:55 PM »
I am growing out a tiny growout of a second generation of cheesemanii and galapagense from seed you sent me. One took a long time to germinate but did. This time I will plant them further from any other tomatoes as they were small plants and almost got buried in a habrochaites hybrid jungle. Hopefully it will produce plenty of seed for sharing and your growout as well. I think thats a neat part of our collabotative effort as a group. Success can mean seed enough to replenish the whole groups seed stores. Would be cool to use them as a pollen parent on something like Big Hill.

I did the 30 minute 50% strength bleach TGRC protocol on LA2329 and it was the first tomato to germinate. I
Which I found intriguing and perhaps worth using more.
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