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Messages - Andrew Barney

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Second largest.

Cool! Thanks for the photos! I am particularly impressed with the sizes you got for the conditions you gave them.

How did they taste? The largest one #1 does not look all that tasty despite the nice yellow color.  Number 2 looks practically like a domestic. Did it taste good? How was flesh firmness or pectin concentration?

Am i correct in the fact that you planted the landrace domestics with the citron hybrids mixed together?

EDIT: i guess you already mentioned how the largest one tasted.

Hello Andrew and others,

I chopped open the first few of my citron/ watermelons. The largest was 24 pounds and nearly spherical. It had the cloud-like citron patterns on it. On the inside, it had pale yellow flesh, tan seeds with the larger end dark brown, and a very thick rind. It was a bit more solid than a standard melon. The taste was not bad, but not very interesting, sweet but bland. It was also a little grainy.

I'll post more on the other melons as I cut them open and pictures as I get time.

These plants had been very neglected; no fertilizer, no weeding, and late planting.

Community & Forum Building / Re: OSSI website
« on: 2018-11-11, 06:12:25 PM »
Yeah i agree,  a link should be put on the main OSSI website.  In the main menu an ideal spot would be between Magazine and Podcast or under Community or Get Involved.

Plant Breeding / Re: High Outcrossing Peas (Pisum Sativum)
« on: 2018-11-09, 08:41:46 PM »
I assume these peas are only sterile if there are no other varieties around, in other words functionally self-incompatible rather that sterile?

So if they were planted with ordinary peas, they'd cross with them. And any of the offspring that expressed these traits would cross with one another?

I would guess that if they came with the liability of lower production due to low fertility, these traits would fade out of a landrace once they'd done their job.

I am assuming that because the stigma is exerted that means they never self pollinate and thus are "mechanically sterile". I take that to mean that manual self pollination and bee pollinations would work fine.

This might be a novel trait for helping newbies try and cross pollinating peas. Since it is recessive, in a way it would disappear from the population but sometimes show back up.

I think i will try to request some from the JIC if i can. Others can do the same. I've found the JIC to be really friendly with seed requests.

Plant Breeding / Re: High Outcrossing Peas (Pisum Sativum)
« on: 2018-11-09, 12:25:48 PM »
Yeah, i thought about that yesterday. Pollen becomes viable very very early, so maybe something needed like the bean thread and delayed pollen would also help. Anyone know of such a trait in peas?

Doing a quick search on jic produced this which sounds promising!

Mechanical sterility, exserted pistils

Structurally sterile due to protruding pistil, petals not extending fully, carpels larger, styles shorter, filaments and petals crumpled.

Plant Breeding / Re: High Outcrossing Peas (Pisum Sativum)
« on: 2018-11-09, 12:15:40 PM »
Yeah, i thought about that yesterday. Pollen becomes viable very very early, so maybe something needed like the bean thread and delayed pollen would also help. Anyone know of such a trait in peas?

Plant Breeding / High Outcrossing Peas (Pisum Sativum)
« on: 2018-11-08, 08:03:57 PM »
At the request of Gilbert, and knowing there are others interested in this as well i have started this thread for those who wish to collaborate on searching for and breeding peas that have higher rates of outcrossing than traditional varieties. For those who are familiar with Landrace or evolutionary breeding techniques you will know that having a large amount of genetic diversity can be desirable, especially when trying to combat things like climate, diseases, pests, etc. Having good genetic diversity can allow for selection and adaption of both biotic and abiotic stresses.

Anyway, one idea is to use peas that have more open flowers. Traditional pea varieties seem to have a closed flower structure and a fused keel that makes it difficult for bees or other pollinators to even have access to pea pollen. Even varieties that have bright colored flowers will attract pollinators but often they then fly away. Some bees are known to bite into the flowers, but if the flowers were more open then higher outcrossing rates might occur. One downside is that these open flowers might be more vulnerable to dry conditions and may have decreased production. Still i think it is something worth working on anyway.

My interest first came from Joseph who a few years back had suggested an interest in true landrace peas.

I am told there is someone already working on this in secret and is close to releasing such a variety soon. That is all i know however. But i think i have two sources of germplasm that already may have high hopes for this project already. I will take a leap of faith that by sharing my ideas here openly that through collaborative plant breeding something really cool and useful may develop in this realm. I have found that by working together it is sometimes better than working alone and in secret. Sure one would like to keep things like this to themselves and say "look what i bred!", but some projects are worth setting aside ones pride for the greater good.

1. Okay, so the first line of germplasm i have been looking into is the NAP gene.

From what i gather this is a mutation that produces a few slight oddities, but nothing so terrible. The main side affect of this mutation that we are interested in is an open keel trait in most of the flowers (may be slightly environmentally affected), which obviously creates open access to pollen by bees. This variety has slightly elongated seedlings that look slightly odd and get rather tall very quickly, but not enough to cause anything serious. The seeds are sort of a mottled brown color with wrinkled seeds and is actually a decent snap pea too. I grew this variety last season and quite like it. I may have some seed i can share left and i have already shared some with a few people already. The NAP gene is recessive and on chromosome 1.

navicula apertus:
Petals of keel broader and wing-like. Separate or only partly united, the keel is more or less open with anthers and pistil clearly showing.

Here are a few photos of NAP gene flowers.

2. The next germplasm which sounds promising is the chochleata trait.

This one is also recessive and on chromosome 5. This one may also have open flowers. I have a few seeds from this one, not enough to share at this point, so i reccomend you request your own samples from JIC, or the various gene banks like USDA GRIN, gatersleben, or the nordic seedbank. I have not had the chance to grow and evaluate this one yet.

Abnormal flowers with high frequency of double keels, wings and standards. High frequency of double fused carpels in some backgrounds. Flowers open.

Plant Breeding / Re: overwintering pea breeding
« on: 2018-11-08, 12:25:44 PM »
Some of them may be hybrid, yielding even more genetic diversity. Remind me on this thread next spring if I forget.

Besides my goal of a low input dry legume crop, I think overwintering peas for fresh eating would be a good idea here, to beat the hot weather.

Also, while i havn't made a specific breeding project for peas that might be heat tolerant,  i suspect that i may have been selecting for it in many of the strains and varieties I've been growing. Many of the seed i already sent you does well for me here even well into june and July. This did not use to be the case from what i can remember.

Lots of people will say "try 'Wando' peas if you want heat tolerance,  but I've found Wando to be no different than average big box store sold peas in this regard and never grew them again. I've found more success just growing and selecting my own.

And yes there may be lots of hybrids in the seed i sent you and others,  both because I'm sloppy with my pea crosses and labels but also because i am now starting to wonder if bee crossings have been higher in my garden than i originally thought. I've noticed lots of various bee species loving my peas these last few seasons,  some being attracted to all the colorful flowers,  but i also saw a leaf cutter bee harvesting leaves for its nest. Cool stuff!

If anyone is interested in collaborating on a high-outcrossing pea project i have two separate germplasm pea varieties i have collected that may do the trick in higher natural out crossings. PM me or start a new thread if you want to talk about that. It was originally inspired by Joseph wanting true landrace peas.

Plant Breeding / Re: overwintering pea breeding
« on: 2018-11-07, 07:40:36 PM »
While I'm not breeding for these goals specifically it would be nice traits to have and i will be interested in your results. I think peas would do well in Colorado if adopted more widely.

P.s. ironically i have a fall planted pea that has survived. It is a yellow snow pea i think. There may be others that survived as well,  but one big plant I'm watching. Ironically i wouldn't think the snow peas would survive as good without the fiber genes as they do poor in hail storms compared to others. But we will see.

I have heard of some people planting "Austrian winter peas"

Seed Saving / Propagating Green Cacti Fruit
« on: 2018-11-06, 07:30:28 AM »
Not exactly seed saving,  but close enough i figure. Not exactly plant breeding on its own. Found this picture and idea in an old book recently and thought I'd share it.

I'm trying it out on one of those giant cactus fruits you can buy at the store now. Not sure what species as that affects ploidy number (a topic i will create soon). We will see if it works. If so, it could help get a jump start on starting from seed as this would grow faster. Cacti sure are interesting.

Plant Breeding / Re: tiny seeded melon
« on: 2018-11-03, 07:59:43 AM »
I got a watermelon from a neighbor that had tiny white seeds--I thought it might be a growing problem rather than a variety. I didn't grow it and I don't know where she got it--does anyone think there might be problems with including it in my landrace?

Well i guess it depends on if the seeds were flat and undeveloped or if plump and fully developed.

True "seedless" watermelons still have seeds,  they just won't grow because of the chromosome mismatch of a tetraploid crossed with a diploid.

But otherwise, if they grow, then they should be fine. They may not be adapted to your climate necessarily but i don't see any problems other than that.

I suspect the seeds your neighbor gave you might be flat and unviable, but without more information it's hard to know for sure.

Plant Breeding / Re: Solanum pimpinillifolium
« on: 2018-11-02, 03:11:29 PM »
I've heard this species is a high outcrosser despite the small closed up flowers. I remember reading about it on that tomato forum once.

Interestingly, i now think that little natural wild tomato cross in my garden was between this species and habrochiates. Instead of cheesmaniae. It ended up ripening to almost red, but not quite and took a very long time to ripen,  which seems different from this parent variety. Not to mention the green stripes.

I guess it's possible it was instead a hybrid with Josephs F2 fern x hab. Cross which also had small closed flowers. Also a possibility.

Plant Breeding / Re: tiny seeded melon
« on: 2018-11-02, 03:06:21 PM »
All good points. I was just pointing out that the possibility is there. In any case it's slightly off topic to this threads main objective,  so let's move on.

I too am more interested in this tiny tomato seed trait if i don't already have it, which i probably don't. I'm liking this idea more and more and think this could really take a chunk out of the traditional seedless watermelon business. Heck i feel like I've seen that in one i bought as seedless before, maybe.

Add me to the list of interested parties in getting seed from you down the line. It could make for some interesting crosses and introgressions.

In response to Gilbert and others,  awesome! Thanks for the grow report and collaboration on this project! I look forward to pictures!

Plant Breeding / Re: tiny seeded melon
« on: 2018-10-30, 10:16:35 PM »
Yes I dont think flesh would be of much concern when breeding for an edible seed. I think Carol Deppe said in one of her books that dual purpose varieties generally arent much chop because they are pretty much mediocre at both purposes they are breed for. I would have two seperate lines of a melon for seed and a melon for flesh.   

The irony of using Carol Deppe as an example,  as her Goldini Zucchini is just that,  dual purpose.

I'm not necessarily breeding for edible seeds,  but i don't see why both couldn't be accomplished if one wanted.

No would not agree with that, ive garden in very friable free draining soil and get plenty of aerial roots in the past. I will be taking a lot more notice in this summer corn, it will be a mix of old and new varieties.

Richard, i think he or she might be referring to sorghum. Maybe it works different in sorghum. When i use the term "corn" i am using it in the American sense as in "Maize", not sorghum like in many other parts of the globe.

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