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Messages - William S.

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1
Tomatoes / Re: Breeding with wild tomato species
« on: Yesterday at 05:25:45 AM »
I looked at my galapagos and there are now five germinates, three of them new. This is the furry fruited one. Has white fly resistance according to Andrew's blog post. I would kind of like to plant more with the bleach treatment so they will germinate fast and evenly.

Cheesemanii is more abundant and germinated faster and more evenly without treatment.

A experiment might be to plant them in an isolation garden with a yellow exserted such as Big Hill. Big Hill would make a obvious F1 and a fun F2. Obvious F1 is useful given my tendency to help transfer pollen but not to emasculate. Especially with the galapagense that F2 will be intriguing.. I think I will combine the three obligate yellow accessions in one block (R18, S35-36, and XA1/A2 G2) and devote one or two of the smaller isolation gardens to this. 

Edit: or I may keep them in the greenhouse. That would save a lot of work for a first cross. Might even be able to emasculate because emasculation works for me inside and in the greenhouse but so far not outside. Tends to dry the flowers out and I loose them in the field.

That also would open the possibility of crossing LA2329 with the galapagose easily because they would all be in the greenhouse together. Which might do nothing, but they are two widely separate accessions both with arthropod resistences so there could be some interesting synergy there and the result of it would be fuzzy.

It would be nice to keep S35-36 seperate for flavor improvement. R18 has too few individuals though for S allele health so I think it should go in with XA1/A2

2
Tomatoes / Re: Breeding with wild tomato species
« on: 2021-04-18, 09:24:45 PM »
That domestic galapagense is a nice yellow with good flavor and super early. It would be interesting to have it tested genetically. It would be a neat trick to cross it with the real galapagense and cheesemanii. Also Coyote would be an interesting choice I think it has a lot of pimpinillifolium in it.

Joseph has done a fairly good job of convincing me to not grow red tomatoes. Still a few. My exserted tiger is not yellow yet. The yellow ones so far aren't exserted. Still hoping for a yellow one. Maybe someone will buy a packet and find one that was hiding in recession. Going to cross it to something yellow and exserted.

3
Tomatoes / Re: Breeding with wild tomato species
« on: 2021-04-18, 07:55:55 PM »
When I was doing plant tissue culture alot back in 2009-11 I used a 10% bleach for one minute protocol followed by a H202 minute followed by sterile water rinse. This 30 minute 50% bleach TGRC protocol must soften the seed coat!

For Rubus a H202 rinse may be enough to short circuit the 2 years down to one. I have a wild Rubus ideas patch in the back yard that took two years to germinate. Then some folks in the nursery told me to use the hydrogen peroxide, still haven't propagated more rubus (this would be early 2000's) Check the native plant network's propagation protocol database for duration.

I would feel like I would need to grow an ounce of seed to sell or share on EFN probably take 100 plants or more unless I could get them bigger than in 2019. I don't plan to isolate them either. Would be neat to find a chance hybrid but I suspect they have more potential as pollen parents. Though maybe, it really doesn't take much seed to do some sharing. There aren't that many of us wild tomato enthusiasts. One of the things I learned last year is that one ounce of tomato seed is enough for most tomato varieties. It isn't really that much. One great big plant might almost be enough. Except my 2019 plants of these were tiny. Had a lot more seeds than I planted though in the few fruits!

It was 2019 I grew that big penellii hybrid you sent one seed of. The offspring from it is an interesting seed packet I would like to grow again. Maybe next year. I'll probably scale back my LA2329 next year as if all goes well I'll have plenty of seed to share and years worth of seed. Then maybe I can rotate out some other things.

4
Tomatoes / Re: Breeding with wild tomato species
« on: 2021-04-18, 02:58:55 PM »
I am growing out a tiny growout of a second generation of cheesemanii and galapagense from seed you sent me. One took a long time to germinate but did. This time I will plant them further from any other tomatoes as they were small plants and almost got buried in a habrochaites hybrid jungle. Hopefully it will produce plenty of seed for sharing and your growout as well. I think thats a neat part of our collabotative effort as a group. Success can mean seed enough to replenish the whole groups seed stores. Would be cool to use them as a pollen parent on something like Big Hill.

I did the 30 minute 50% strength bleach TGRC protocol on LA2329 and it was the first tomato to germinate. I
Which I found intriguing and perhaps worth using more.

5
Cucurbits / Re: Cucurbita maxima very small seeds
« on: 2021-04-18, 09:31:09 AM »
I get small seeds in small fruits as well. It is not necessarily genetic. Life may just have been tough for the parent. I try sometimes to plant a border of squash to repel deer. Sometimes I don't get part of it watered or it is poor soil. When this happens sometimes the plants end up very small and produce a few very small poor fruits. It might be worth a little experiment. In terms of planting half the seeds in a limited environment such as a container and half in very good soil to see what happens. Wonder if squash abuse leads to epigenetic change?

6
Asters / Re: Wild Lettuce Crosses?
« on: 2021-04-18, 07:38:57 AM »
The F1 of Joseph's and Ferdzy's putative F1 both fit within my mental model of the range of variation I see within Lactuca serriola. For instance I saw a plant like that in a city 15 miles away a few days ago. It's early yet. Then over the next couple months I would expect that seedling to harden, get stronger spines and look like the wild species photo. Early wild seedlings and also shade grown plants will have that domestic look. Also in my garden some of the domestic strains when they do bolt will look more like the wild than at any other time. Lactuca serriola is already an ancestor of some common cultivars. The more domestic look corresponds somewhat to juveniles and domestication to a certain extent is the plant staying in juvenile growth stages longer. However when you have two plants under the same conditions and ages generally these characters are pretty solid for hybridization. There is also probably some gene flow back into the wild. I've also noted that in Southern California wild lettuce plants Lactuca serriola still are much less common and have more trichomes or hairs than here in Western Montana. I've never been to Ontario but it is far east from here. I would not be surprised to find differences there given what I found in California. In my garden I currently have a domestic lettuce plant volunteer in a seed scattered section about four inches across. It's got the red markings on the leaves and some other distinctly domestic characters. My lettuce patches tend to be volunteer patches a lot of the time. Which means germination can be erratic and plants not even aged. I got one hybrid looking plant last year and I've no idea if it was a descendent of prior hybrids or a new hybridization event. It seems like a interesting exercise in lettuce breeding to track some generations of segregation as Joseph has done- given the years of local adaptation populations of Lactuca serriola have undergone. I just haven't followed up in a precise way in my garden. The cultivars with red markings transfer that character to the hybrids in my garden which makes them easier to spot for me. I tend to weed my volunteer beds with full knowledge of species. Suspect I weed out green Lactuca serriola hybrid lettuce and green orach seedlings to some extent. The latter because of its resemblance to chenopodium album opposed to the more common red seedlings.

http://ontariowildflowers.com/main/group.php?id=95

Lactuca biennis and Lactuca Canadensis are both found in Ontario according to this page. Probably less likely to hybridize with domestic though I haven't researched it extensively.


7
Realized that Mission Mtn. Sunrise is so short season I can plant more and get more potato leaf plants.

8
Asters / Re: Wild Lettuce Crosses?
« on: 2021-04-17, 08:57:53 PM »
In my garden I get crosses with Lactuca serriola which are observable readily because they have red marks from the domestic.

This individual in your photo could be a hybrid or it could be 100% Lactuca serriola. 

9
Tomatoes / Re: Breeding with wild tomato species
« on: 2021-04-16, 09:22:11 PM »
Thought this one has wild type leaf.

10
Tomatoes / Re: Traditional Tomato Breeding Book
« on: 2021-04-14, 05:22:25 PM »
Yeah I love Brad Gates tomatoes. His Blue Gold is the probable father on my much shorter season blue bicolor and an unknown Lofthouse potato leaf was the mother. His stuff isn't terribly long season either. Trends towards 75 DTM.

Tom Wagner has been doing the same sort of thing longer and more. There's quite a few others who have been involved as well. Lee Goodwin at his J & L gardens is one who I've liked.

Another neat little story is Alan Kapuler's tomatoes. Lots of long tress tomatoes that have cool features.

There are some others I've never grown a tomato bred by but who have contributed alot Dean Slater, Blane Horton, and Bruno Fournier might be three of them.

11
Tomatoes / Re: Breeding with wild tomato species
« on: 2021-04-14, 05:12:27 PM »
I think that's where I used to get my greenhouse film on my old greenhouse (over a decade ago) and some pots and things I still use. About due for a new case or something planting tray wise. On the tail end of some 18 cell trays I bought a case of who knows how long ago. 

Have you seen plantel reusable trays? Used them for native grass plugs years ago for work. Those are nice. Though would have to think in what cell size I want for tomatoes.


LA2329 habrochaites tray is the one I am most worried about because I went all in on those. Weather is looking warmer soon.

12
Tomatoes / Re: Traditional Tomato Breeding Book
« on: 2021-04-14, 04:24:49 PM »
Another way to go would be interviews and profiles of as many tomato breeding experts as possible. However the idea of chapter authorship I like a little better. Some of these folks could probably write very interesting stand alone books on tomato breeding alone. Rebsie Fairholm did such a thing for potatoes a few years ago.

I think this wild tomato species work we do adds layers of endless fascination. Growing the wild species alone is worth a chapter or more, it's such an exploration. It also greatly expands on what a tomato can be.

The work that folks have done in terms of stripes, and spots and colors in recent years is just amazing. In 2006 I joined seed savers exchange and promptly moved to California. Was unable to use the book but the tomato section was just huge. In the 15 years since tomatoes have just gotten fancier.

I feel like all these fascinating stories are out there to read on the net and as parts of books. Just not compiled into a volume.

13
Tomatoes / Re: Breeding with wild tomato species
« on: 2021-04-14, 04:15:49 PM »
I've poisoned three of my trays, the three 72 cell trays I bought from Walmart with too much of a good thing: water. I think as soon as the weather warns up a little I'm moving everyone out to the greenhouse.

14
Tomatoes / Re: Traditional Tomato Breeding Book
« on: 2021-04-13, 04:39:16 PM »
He does landscaping work. He is on linked in. I like his Sweet Cherriette tomato. Also Forest Fire. I haven't grown all of his.

15
Tomatoes / Re: Breeding for Late Blight Resistant Tomatoes
« on: 2021-04-12, 06:47:30 PM »

As for the reference to Raul Robinson--this refers to the idea that there is "horizontal" and "vertical" resistance, that these are actually different from each other, and that "horizontal" is slower to be overcome by the evolution of the pathogen. It's additionally assumed that horizontal resistance is dependent upon multiple genes with small affects, and vertical resistance is dependent upon one gene with major effects (the sort of gene university breeders transfer into their varieties). It's normally assumed that heirlooms have horizontal resistance, but this is only until someone actually does some crosses and looks.

Then, my impression is that the heirloom usually turns out to have no measurable resistance--or it actually has one of those major resistance genes, exactly the same ones involved in "vertical" resistance. Ph1 is a good case in point. It was present in a number of heirlooms, which would undoubtedly, in the absence of serious genetic investigation, been called "horizontal" resistance. It conferred serious resistance in its day. However, it was overridden by more modern lines of late blight, and now doesn't confer useful resistance.

Whether a variety's resistance is easily out-evolved by the pathogen is not any such simple thing as one-gene-bad, more-genes good, either. For example, Jim Baggett's pea varieties that carry one gene for resistance to pea enation virus and one for powdery mildew and one for wilt--which let's them be grown all the way from spring to fall--are still nicely resistant to the respective diseases, though they have been around for decades.

Generally, though, from first principles you can guess that if you have two different major genes for resistance to something, your variety is less vulnerable to evolution of the pathogen than just one.

Ph2 and Ph3 show a different repertoire of what lines of late blight they are sensitive too. However, both genes act as codominants and act quantitatively with respect to each other. So varieties that are homozygous for both generally show strong resistance to all strains of blight; varieties that are homozygous for just one, or heterozygous for both show less resistance, with levels more dependent upon specific strains.

Another way of looking at it. Let's suppose that after we've developed a new generation of heirlooms with Ph2 and Ph3 in them, whether someone who didn't know what we did would call them "horizontal" or "vertical" resistance. Well, before they did serious genetics, they would probably just assume they had horizontal resistance. If they then went and did the serious genetic analysis in the absence of testing specifically for Ph2 and Ph3, they would probably still think the resistance was horizontal. Because it would look quantitative under field conditions.

One thing that is very valuable about working with wild material is you might discover additional genes conferring serious resistance to late blight. To show up as a QTL in something as hard to evaluate as disease resistance, especially in variable material, you pretty much would be talking about genes with major effects, by the way. Various university breeders are still "mining" wild material looking for new genes. Additional new genes would be valuable. Could you test for them using marker assisted selection? No. Marker assisted selection is based upon someone having identified a distinctive DNA sequence in or near the gene for resistance. So you could test wild-derived late-blight resistant material to see if it contains Ph2 or Ph3. But not PhX, something new. Of course, if your material doesn't have either of those genes and is resistant, it presumably is something new. So then you'd just give some to one of the university groups which is spending day and night looking for new Ph genes, and they would undoubtedly be very happy to do the molecular biology and identify a marker for the gene.

Carol had this reply to a prior discussion of this. My response is simply to try both approaches. Belt and suspenders.

Garden space wise Carol's approach will probably never use more than space for a couple tomato plants in my garden. Couple Iron Lady's maybe a couple F1's to grow some F2 seed. Unless I get hit by blight and then it might expand. One packet of ten Iron Lady seeds is down by four seeds after three years. Also I do expect that if late blight does hit and stay sometime I'll still be able to grow tomatoes inside and in the greenhouse and work on this after the fact.

The general diversity approach implicit in the obligate outcrossing approach of Joseph's and the similar exserted stigma Kapuler approach tomatoes well those already have most of my garden. In theory if blight hits maybe a few of those hyper diverse interspecies hybrid resulting tomatoes will be resistant and get seed saved.

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