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General Category => Nightshades => Plant Breeding => Tomatoes => Topic started by: William S. on 2021-05-09, 08:33:00 PM

Title: Tomato Journal
Post by: William S. on 2021-05-09, 08:33:00 PM
Thought I would start a thread for very general tomato related thoughts in journal form.

I transplanted a few yesterday into larger and even whole summer pots. Also have a few with green buds formed. Happy to see that.

Cold weather all weekend low tonight of 33 F. Then will warm with average last frost dste Saturday. Might be able to start field planting as early as Tuesday evening.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: Andrew Barney on 2021-05-10, 04:39:22 PM
Seems All my wild and unwild tomato seedlings are undergoing an unexpected frost tolerance trial!!

Most of the peruvianum hybrids have germinated. Most of the others have not, but some have i think. Very cold, wet, and starting to snow.

Guess we will see what happens. I figure most will survive since seedlings have a higher frost tolerance to adult plants anyway. Will be interesting to see if any exhibit anthocyanin protection.

34 F low tonight
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: Garrett Schantz on 2021-05-10, 05:37:02 PM
I had some peruvianum / big hill seedlings outside the past two weeks. They experienced some very light frosts. Some died, some regrew.

Moved some more seedlings outside today, they are under a bit of cover - a light frost probably won't do much of anything to them.

Older seedlings will be moved outside periodically to harden off pretty soon.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: William S. on 2021-05-10, 07:47:37 PM
Planted a couple flats out today. 36 predicted tonight. Tried to bury them a little deep in case it dips down and they freeze to the ground tonight. Picked out rejected regular leaf ones of my blue bicolor and some reds I don't really know why I planted. 
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: William S. on 2021-05-10, 10:24:13 PM
https://wischlegel.wixsite.com/my-site/post/direct-seeding-tomatoes-year-five

Just took a stab at a blog post on direct seeding tomatoes.

Also transplanted some more boring red tomatoes into larger pots.

The earliest 2020 XL from the promiscuous project which was delicious and I thought possibly obligate outcrossing based on blossom drop. Also a large blue skinned red from the 2019 huge F2 tomato growout. It was late for a direct seeded but my wife sometimes asks me why we can't have great big tomatoes so it is for her.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: William S. on 2021-05-12, 09:50:29 PM
Planted a couple flats out today. 36 predicted tonight. Tried to bury them a little deep in case it dips down and they freeze to the ground tonight. Picked out rejected regular leaf ones of my blue bicolor and some reds I don't really know why I planted.

36 turned out to be 32 for hours. Looks like most of that first batch froze to the ground. A few survived and looked pretty good. Kind of nonsensically again. Like one Jagodka in the Earl's strain Jagodka clump. Also one Forest Fire in the Forest Fire clump. The descendents of the Blue Gold survivor of 2017 did not fare well. Micro variation in temperature? Activated epigenetics? I thought one was in a little soil bowl. No more idea now then in 2017 though.

Planted more today including some I really do not want to freeze. Don't think they will but you never know. Forcast looks good though, lows in the 40's.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: Andrew Barney on 2021-05-12, 10:45:38 PM
sorry to hear that. All the ones of mine that had germinated survived fine. But they are seedlings and don't yet have true leaves. They also have been outside the whole time, so they already were adjusted to the average temps and needed no hardening off. The rest will probably germinate soon.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: William S. on 2021-05-12, 11:35:43 PM
No germination yet of volunteer or direct seeded tomatoes. Too cold I think, also maybe a little too dry. A one inch rain event (or a good watering) and warm weather tends to help. Germination usually doesn't happen before last frost here. Only in 2017 so far.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: Garrett Schantz on 2021-05-13, 07:02:49 PM
Got some germination on tomatoes that I planted recently. I moved these outside once they all started germinating.

Wild Currant Tomato From Peru - Pimpinellifolium type that is the parent of the habrochaites cross that I have
Alberto Shatters
Everglades tomato ( type that grows "wild" in HRseeds garden, probably adapted to my state to some extent )
Matt's Wild Cherry
Wild Pink Cherry Tomato Humboldtii - Probably a feral tomato like Matt's Wild Cherry
Fuzzy Wuzzy Tomato - Fuzzy dwarf type, small fruits, could be of interest to some people here
Douchoua Pepper Tomato - Stuffing tomato, thick walled
Banana Currant - Gold Rush Currant x Banana Legs tomato
Sara's Galapagos Tomato
Galapagos Island Tomato
Galapagos Island Tomato #2

No germination on the "true" galapagos types yet - same with pennellii, chmielewsky, neorickii.

My large tray of wilds / crosses - most of them were hit by cold / frost awhile back. Some seeds are now sprouting, some Wildlings / other series survived - they don't look very healthy though.

Moved my wilds outside under a bit of cover today - tested the spot with my other types, light frosts don't hit that area. They are seedlings, will need cycled in and out.

Low of 38 today. Next few days are in the 40F range, slowly creeping into the 50s later into the week.



Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: William S. on 2021-05-13, 11:17:46 PM
Gold Pearl and Aztek micro dwarf tomatoes are just barely pushing stems out of the potting mix. Cotyledons shold emerge shortly.

First flower was forming on Mission Mountain Sunrise as I planted it. The stigma looked very visible. I think it has some hope, but maybe just for 3 percent or so outcrossing. Still that could be really useful now that it's potato leaf. I've set aside two for crossing experiments. Really want to cross it with Big Hill. Need a potato leaf with better flowers.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: William S. on 2021-05-14, 09:45:20 PM
I cleared off my side of the greenhouse today- planted out about 7 1/2 trays. Then I transplanted my two trays of little ones. Of course I have one more tray of the blue bicolor which I doubt I'll need that hasn't even germinated yet.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: Garrett Schantz on 2021-05-15, 12:59:59 PM
Moved the rest of my trays outside today.

I would have hardened these off before, but it was cloudy / foggy the past few weeks. Too much shock going from those conditions to very hot / sunny conditions.

Got a single chmielewskii sprout so far. Probably keeping the new wilds in pots. I can get them to flower / set seed indoors if needed.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: William S. on 2021-05-15, 08:16:34 PM
Seeded two more ~70 foot rows of promiscuous project bicolor today. Still have a fat packet left but no bag.

If I have energy, maybe tomorrow I'll seed a mix or something else. Rototilling dependent.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: William S. on 2021-05-16, 05:16:35 PM
I direct seeded a mix today. Two packets of Big Hill from 2018 and 2019 that were not isolated. The one said it may have crossed with Blue Ambrosia and the other with wild crosses. Then I threw a little bit of exserted tiger in with and the rest of the promiscuous bicolors.

Tomatoes in big pots are doing ok.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: William S. on 2021-05-20, 07:24:58 AM
Going to get to 33F tonight and 32F tomorrow night. I will be deploying some buckets over tomatoes. Also maybe some frost cloth I've never used. This may truncate my tomato numbers. Also set my big pots back in the greenhouse.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: William S. on 2021-05-20, 06:45:22 PM
Well, the 39 F last night apparently got a bunch, exserted orange, mission mountain sunrise, and the slushy field are pretty much toast. Put a bucket on the galapagense even though it was pretty sad. One Forest Fire plant that made it through an earlier frost still looked good. Maybe it has activated epigenetics?!

Mostly covered the R18 S35-37 and a few promiscuous bicolors.

Have about 18 potato leaf Mission Mountain Sunrise in the greenhouse. 72 new sprouts of the same under the grow light. Then I have about 59 promiscuous bicolors in the greenhouse. So there will be plenty of tomatoes. Also I direct seeded four rows of promiscuous yellows and in separate areas a mix of not isolated Big Hill, Exserted tiger, and promiscuous yellows. So there should be some fun tomatoes. Might miss some of the diversity lost though.

Will need to replant exserted orange either by direct seeding, in a tray, or both.

Temp tonight and tomorrow night now predicted to be 32F for both!
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: William S. on 2021-05-21, 10:18:31 AM
Well I needn't have covered last night. Though the night before when the weather report was much more favorable I should have.

Tonight may be 32 F so just left the covers on. -hmm has improved to 33 F
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: William S. on 2021-05-22, 09:32:08 AM
Checking the weather history last night on weather.gov it looks like it briefly got down to 30 F at the small local airport weather station. Only at that point did the dew point match the temperature.

It looks like the covered tomatoes and the uncovered rows next to them are fine for the most part.

The three heavily damaged fields still look terrible. Might be a few survivors though but I will need to return later in the day to give damaged tissue a chance to burn off.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: William S. on 2021-05-23, 06:49:34 PM
Put all my big tomato pots out in this heavy rain. The spindly crowded habrochaites have mostly fallen down. Very different from last year's short stout clay grown plants.

Ran out and fertilized them with Miracle grow soluble organic performance stuff. Will let the rain wash the fertilizer in.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: Steph S on 2021-05-25, 03:02:03 PM
My tomatoes got potted up into their containers in the greenhouse May 17-19, so they had at least 5 days to get over the transplant stress before the big frost last night.  According to the weather station it dropped to -3C, and there was water frozen by the door.  Greenhouse temp early this morning was reading 40 F.   No sign of any damage or distress.  But this evening when I closed up I noticed a fair bit of purpling on the young shoots at or near the top of the plants.  I don't expect that to turn into a problem, but it was interesting to see that only those emerging bits or tops were affected this way, which I usually expect on lower stems.

It was sunny off and on today so the temperature got well up to about 90F at the point I opened a second vent.  And the high yesterday got to 70F with just a few sunny breaks.   So it was a brief temperature plunge.  Often at this time of year we get 3-4 days in a row without any sunshine and the temperature doesn't get much above 50 for several days.  So this kind of one-off cold night is probably not as bad.

This year I put the seedlings out for two weeks of greenhouse temperatures before transplanting.  Lowest it got was 44F on a couple of nights, there were no effects visible at that low.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: Garrett Schantz on 2021-05-25, 05:34:02 PM
Should be able to plant the tomatoes out tomorrow before it rains. Was supposed to rain yesterday, barely got anything.

Got a single hairy habrochaites sprout today - took months to sprout - maybe the high of 90F woke it up. Different accession than what some others here are trialing.

All of my late tomatoes all have at least one seedling in their cells, a pimpinellifolium type sprouted yesterday.

The two wild galapagos types haven't germinated yet, same with neorickii and pennellii. Chmielewskii is going onto its second set of leaves already, seems healthy and there are many seedlings. These are in miracle grow cactus potting mix. HRseeds mentioned that Chmielewskii hated water retention.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: William S. on 2021-05-25, 08:04:43 PM
I tried to walk over to one of my tomatoes and sank into mud. A little more rain expected tonight. Supposed to get down to 39F Friday.

I think I'm going to plant out my potted tomatoes after all. That way they will root deep and not die if they don't get watered.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: Garrett Schantz on 2021-05-26, 01:08:43 PM
Finally got the tomatoes planted today.

Didn't plant the youngest plants that haven't put any leaves out yet.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: Garrett Schantz on 2021-05-26, 06:06:26 PM
Got a nice amount of rain today. Might get volunteers from habrochaites or pimpinellifolium types from last year.

One peruvianum already has buds.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: William S. on 2021-05-26, 07:00:45 PM
I attempted mt first two cross pollinations of the year today. Got a few flecks of pollen from a sweet cherriette but got alot from one Big Hill flower then tried to use Mission Mountain Sunrise as the mother. Might reverse that in future attempts.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: Steph S on 2021-05-27, 12:00:12 PM
I noticed that an F2 line I'm growing out seems to be segregating for the 'exserted stigma' trait which you folks are interested in for outcrossing tomatoes.  So far 3 of 4 are exserted, two more not opened yet.  That must have come from the Orange-1 parent I think.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: Garrett Schantz on 2021-05-27, 05:59:17 PM
Wagner blue green looks bad, as does another antho tomato.

Everything else looks fine.

Big Hill is a nice domestic so far. Germinated and leaved out quickly - two weeks for true leaves, most varieties were 4 weeks. Assuming some of its parents had pimpinellifolium traits...
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: William S. on 2021-05-27, 07:13:41 PM
Cool re: exsertion... I think orange sometimes comes with exsertion? We seem to find it in Sungold segregates, and I think Blue Ambrosia which was my exsertion find in 2017 that I used to create exserted tiger might be a Sungold descendant. Also orange seems to appear from hab crosses?

First Big Hill flower this year is an awesome example of exsertion- combined with beefsteak flower it's just so handy.

No idea if pimpinillifolium in Big Hill. Jagodka could have some but I think Hillbilly is an heirloom. If so it's back a way and not super duper obvious, but possible. Intriguing observation.

Both plants I have left (after frost losses) descended from Golden Tressette look very pimpinillifolium. It has pimp in background according to Alan Kapuler's info and the one strain is I think a back cross.

Just went out and daubed my two mission mountain sunrise stigmas into big hill pollen for a second day. My timing is not ideal, will see. Tied a price tag to each of them.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: Joseph Lofthouse on 2021-05-27, 08:50:59 PM
The parents of Big Hill were Jagodka (from the Vavilov Institute of plant industry in Russia), and Hillbilly. I don't know if either has recent pimpinellifolium heritage.

It's looking like my last cold night is Friday. I expect to start planting tomatoes out on Saturday.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: Garrett Schantz on 2021-05-27, 09:44:11 PM
Jagodka would probably be the one with pimpinellifolium or wild heritage. There are a lot of currant tomatoes (some cherry) that tend to be early or leaf out fast. Jagodka is also noted to be cold resistant among other things. Wouldn't be surprised considering its from Russia - lot of the early varieties there were developed with pimpinellifolium - other wild species as Russia generally requires early, cold tolerant tomatoes. Probably no way to know for sure.

Figured I would mention the Chmielewskii that I am growing as well. I figured I would see what happens if I decided to stop watering it for a week. About a week in a half hour. No noticeable difference in the leaves or stem. Before this, the seedlings were just being misted, the cactus potting mix dries out within an hour or less. I have tried this treatment in normal potting mix using a few other wilds. Only Chilense and Chmielewskii seem to be unaffected.

Chmielewskii is found in the mid-elevation valleys of the Andes mountains according to Moylelab. Unsure if it occurs elsewhere in Peru. I wasn't really expecting much with this species - it is small flowered - more so than pimpinellifolium, apparently has a horrid taste. But it seems like it grows in mid-elevation valleys in rocky areas. Also seems to be drought tolerant to some extent. Might just be the same tolerant genes that pennellii has.

Habrochaites seedlings that died from frost have new seeds germinating in their cells, some are regenerating (brown-black cotyledons though).

This tomato journal is quite nice...
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: Steph S on 2021-05-28, 05:25:05 AM
I agree the Russian Beta orange tomatoes like Zolotoe Serdtse and Orange-1 (aka Belarus Orange) probably have wild relatives in their lineage.  There are segregates from those crosses with distinctively smelly foliage, they are extra 'hairy' around the buds and stems, and the plants are especially rugged and cold tolerant.  So the wild ancestor is probably where the exserted stigma is coming from.
I did a little reading about it, and found a recent (2019) article which looked at the physiology of heat-induced exsertion compared with what is normal in wild tomato relatives, and concluded that the physiology is not the same.
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/pce.13444 (https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/pce.13444)
IDK if that difference is even relevant where the goal is to foster outcrossing by pollinators.   They say the high temperature exsertion causes set failure, but that may be simply failure to self pollinate, where there aren't pollinators, or it could be due to the heat itself, since pollen is killed above 95F afaik. Or perhaps the heat fx on jasmonate and auxin are causing set failure at the same time producing exserted pheno.
There's a comment in the article linked below, about selecting away from exsertion in commercial breeding because inserted stigmas had more heat tolerance over 35C/95F.  My other tomatoes with inserted stigmas and all the OP's I've grown here don't seem to be heat tolerant over 95F, so if this exists in some varieties it's unknown to me.
https://blog.seedsavers.org/blog/exploring-tomato-flower-structure (https://blog.seedsavers.org/blog/exploring-tomato-flower-structure)
I don't recall any special sensitivity to heat in the Orange-1, which iirc had very good set.  But in any case it will be interesting to watch this group of segregates for differences in heat sensitivity if there are any, when the greenhouse temps shoot up over 95F as they usually do at some point.  If I can't bring the temperature below 95, there is generally blossom drop instead of set.  Any surviving sets seem attributable to shade architecture in the plant, I thought.

Will let you guys know what the fruit qualities are like, and I'll save and send you seed of anything promising in the exserted if you want them.  It's not really relevant pro or con for my climate, where we can't realistically hope for an outcrossing landrace approach, due to having to grow tomatoes under cover.  But always following your projects with interest, all the same.


Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: Garrett Schantz on 2021-05-28, 02:09:53 PM
Tomatoes are taking the rain pretty well. Wagner blue green is still looking bad, stem is limp. The other antho tomatoes are also suffering, newest bit of foliage on the others looks healthy. Their foliage is blue due to the cold temperatures when they were growing earlier in the year.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: William S. on 2021-05-28, 02:41:20 PM
Got the seven tomatoes for the porch down to my parents apartment. Dipped my stigmas for a third time.

Here is a picture of two flowers on the big hill plant. The older of which has been my pollen source these last few days. I should be using the big hill as mother though- will in the future. If either of these two pollinations were to work though or even partially work it will result in regular leaf seedlings from a potato leaf mother in the F1. Which is handy.

Someone mentioned how hairy the promiscuous project seedlings are over on permies compared to their heirlooms. I went out and looked at the big hill and was like- yep pretty normal amount- not from the hab parent. Some of the older heirlooms must not have hairs? I definitely have some hairless or at least short haired strains in my collection.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: Steph S on 2021-05-28, 07:23:35 PM
My impression is that all tomatoes are a bit hairy, but that may be due to the selection.
Just looking at a few pics and there is a hairier thing happening with the exserted stigma F2 - here's one of them.
There seem to be less hairs on main stems but that may not be true at the base of the plant.  Maybe there are fewer as they elongate but you may end up with a lot on the main stem, along with those glandular dots "don't mess with me!".
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: Steph S on 2021-05-28, 07:32:20 PM
For comparison, this F1 which has PI120256 as one of multiple parents doesn't look as hairy.  But the main stem does have notable hairs. :)  Maybe the pic lighting just didn't emphasize hair?   It's there but you have to look.

Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: Steph S on 2021-05-28, 07:36:43 PM
This is a Skipper Pink now at F7.  It's a large cherry 2-3 locules.  Still pretty hairy.  Zolotoe Serdtse one of the 4 parents.  I have pics of ZS from other years and the hairiness was very noticeable. 




Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: Diane Whitehead on 2021-05-28, 08:20:43 PM
I've just sown a batch of seeds of hairy tomatoes that have just arrived from Croatia.

I want to see if deer are deterred by hairs.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: William S. on 2021-05-28, 11:20:25 PM
The LA2329 habrochaites and the galapagense I'm growing are both known for type IV trichomes and arthropod resistance. However if memory serves they don't have the long straight sturdy semi sparse hairs common to varieties like these we've just pictured. I should photograph tomorrow. Though the fruits on both species are conspicuously hairy.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: William S. on 2021-05-28, 11:21:31 PM
Oh just got Joseph's new book in the mail from Amazon. Read the tomato chapter. Interesting.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: William S. on 2021-05-29, 01:53:44 PM
Going to try to post LA2329 habrochaites and LA1410 Galapagense both of which are types likely to have arthropod resistance.

Interestingly it's the galapagense that looks more like the hairiness on many of my domestic tomatoes. It has the kind of sparse long stiff hairs.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: Garrett Schantz on 2021-05-31, 12:34:15 PM
The tomatoes didn't care much for the constant rain the past few days. All of the antho tomatoes with blue leaves appear to have died. Maybe sun damage due to the dark coloration? Wooly Kate and Amethyst Cream Cherry appear to be fine.

Neandermato plants appear to be fine. Some leaves look bad, this is probably due to the rain, being in full sun and transplant shock from a few days ago. Newest leaves look good.

Only one peruvianum type seems to have suffered any sort of damage - HRseeds type. Seems to be recovering.

The supposed SC peruvianum from Ebay actually looks better than when I had it indoors. Leaves are very small. Mainly interested in this type as it may have resistant genes that other peruvianums do not have. Also wanting to see if it can pollinate wildlings or species.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: Garrett Schantz on 2021-06-02, 12:35:22 PM
Good bit of tomatoes died. Most varieties hate my area to begin with. Had highs of 90F - some lows of 45F the past week or so.

Good bit of damage from the drastically different temperatures, plus the rain at these different temperatures probably shocked the plants even more.

Plants from nearby greenhouses still in pots - in the shade are showing signs of sunscald. So hardening the plants off probably didn't matter...

Seems like all of J&L Gardens plants are actually doing fine and recovering. Even the ones with no wild heritage. Probably a bit more adapted to the heat.

Peruvianums are doing the best. Suppose I will try planting some more big hill seeds to replace other dead varieties.

Most pimpinellifolium, wildling, habrochaites are hanging on pretty well. New bits of growth on them are nice to see.

Cloudy weather at the start of the season along with the wetness wasn't all too good either.

Hopefully conditions improve, weather stabilizes for a bit.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: William S. on 2021-06-02, 01:59:06 PM
One of the results I find interesting is a few plants of promiscuous project bicolors that got planted in the deeper sand left from a pile base. Received no frost protection, deepest green healthiest looking tomatoes of any that were out for the frosts and heavy rain. Clay soil plants look terrible by comparison. I have a mental model right now of tomatoes as sandy soil plants that thrive in seasonal stream beds and dry washes. I met those conditions for a few plants and they are thriving. Though I also think the others will recover now that they are warm and dry. I'll let the transplant gardens dry out until and unless I think they really need watered (usually in July). Which some summers is true and some never happens.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: William S. on 2021-06-02, 07:44:28 PM
Have more tomato seeds sprouting in the rows. Germination is still not even enough for my liking. May have to do some more watering. Found some sprouting in the compost. Could be good ones hard to say. Something I grew last year I imagine! I saved a little clump of them in a pot.

The frozen tomatoes are resprouting rapidly with this heat. About 20% of the blue potato leaf bicolors aka mission mountain sunrise- already planted another 17. About 45% or so of exserted orange- enough that I probably don't need to replant but the seeds have germinated on the replant ones. Similar on the slushy field. Lots of tomatoes are coming back.

Over in the promiscuous field some of the lightly damaged tomatoes have lost apical dominance and are sprouting more shoots. They are going to really take off with this heat. A few of them look really great. The only one blooming has inserted but near the tip stigmas. Looks like the first few are going to abort but that could be the frost. Will be interesting to see if that plant is self fertile. Would be a good sign we are on the right track if it hardly sets any fruit.



Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: Steph S on 2021-06-03, 11:35:48 AM
On the opposite track here, all my plants are blooming in the greenhouse and starting to set their first cluster.  Our weather is such a crapshoot, this week it's running about 5 C above normals even most of the nights.  The wind has been keeping it just perfect for setting - low 80's F - but today I had to get a couple of fans out and try to keep it below 95. 

The goal for me is basically opposite to the outdoor cross-pollination you guys are working on.  The ideal plant for us is one that self pollinates very readily without wanting to be buzzed, shook, or tended in any way.  It has to set and grow fruit in cool temperatures, because that is the usual condition. 
Also since greenhouse space is necessary and expensive, stable reliable OP's are desirable for tomato production here.  It's a food security thing.   
So I pretty much want all of them to produce at least a couple of fruit by selfing, for seeds, before I consider turfing them outdoors.  End of June would be normal for that/ and for this kind of weather.
I do have way too many plants in the greenhouse though.  So "hurry up and set" before they get too much bigger... ::)





Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: William S. on 2021-06-03, 02:35:06 PM
I think my first two attempted crosses of the year Mission mountain sunrise x big hill may have taken.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: William S. on 2021-06-03, 10:00:42 PM
I carefully interplanting the clumps of LA2329 Solanum habrochaites with bicolors from the promiscuous project. Something, probably mammalian is eating them. I found one decapitated, another 3/4 chewed through at the base, and a few more just missing.

Interestingly whatever it is, probably a vole or mouse, is leaving the LA2329 alone. Understandable. Strong smelling accession. Someone mentioned deer resistant? Or some such. Might not just be insects it repels.

Hopefully it will miss one promiscuous bicolor.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: William S. on 2021-06-03, 10:37:48 PM
Also seperately direct seeded promiscuous bicolors have spotty germination especially on the sand layer. Found a clump of two half eaten in one area and what looked like perhaps flea beetles in the area.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: William S. on 2021-06-05, 01:32:17 PM
Found the best volunteer tomatoes of the year. In the wrong field. Have promptly pulled them up and stuck them in a pot to replant in the slushy field.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: Garrett Schantz on 2021-06-05, 02:13:19 PM
Moved my two hairy habrochaites seedlings into the garden a few days ago along with some other seedlings. Didn't harden these ones off. Some appear to have gotten scorched. The hairy habrochaites and a few others don't seem to care about the lighting change due to how young they are.

Some tomato seedlings are also sprouting in pots - so I have some more pimpinellifolium and habrochaites now. They shouldn't get scorched.

Wildlings are beginning to recover from the heat - some others are slowly recovering.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: Steph S on 2021-06-11, 06:54:09 AM
Went to freezing yesterday and snowed, about 2 cm on ground here June 10.  ::)  Greenhouse low was only 44F though so tomatoes were not affected. 
I've been noticing that the exserted stigma seems to be an inconsistent trait.  Some flowers show it and others don't on the same plant. 
Exsertion showed up yesterday in the F1 involving PI120256.  Have not seen it on any of the other flowers. Perhaps this is due to the extreme heat of a couple of days ago?  No idea, just a wild guess.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: William S. on 2021-06-11, 07:29:43 AM
34 F here this early morning. Yes exserted is a fickle trait and could be multi causal but definitely has environmental influences. I sort of have a mental mode of some plants having a good exsertion trait and other varieties a fickle trait and I mentally break it up into multiple qualitative amounts of exsertion. There are plants with stigma level to the anther cone tip and a gradient out to some pretty extreme exsertion. I suspect some of it is multiple traits and some single dose vs. Double dose genes. In my intentionally exserted varieties that plant would be a cull as I would figure it for single dose. In more casual areas like my slushy garden it would be quite welcome.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: William S. on 2021-06-11, 01:26:33 PM
No frost damage. Planted the rest of the tomatoes in the greenhouse. Ground is nice and wet from the rain.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: William S. on 2021-06-13, 09:50:35 PM
Both of the tomatoes on two different plants are retaining the tomatoes from the flowers I emasculated and crossed. Potato leaf Mission Mountain Sunrise Blue bicolor is the mother and Big Hill the father. Very excited for this cross. My goal is a exserted potato leaf blue bicolor.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: Steph S on 2021-06-14, 05:01:16 AM
Wow, William that has to be the most exotic tomato ever.  :)  Looking forward to the pics of ripe fruit.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: William S. on 2021-06-14, 09:59:40 PM
Long way to ripe. Also a bit upside down in the picture. Fruit wise the Mission Mountain Sunrise is alot like the Brad Gates Blue Gold variety it is descended from. Just smaller. The exciting thing to me is how short season it is.

Once I get the exserted stigma fixed with my Big Hill cross my next move will probably be to cross with exserted tiger for the stripes. Work keeps me busy this time of year. So weekends are all about weeding. Hopefully some crosses are happening via proximity. I have a big hill, mission mountain sunrise, and exserted tiger in a clump. Then around them are the LA2329 and promiscuous bicolors. Would be nice to find some natural crosses from that.

I have some big hill seed direct seeded that was from plants in the matrix of things in 2018 and 2019. I hope some fun F1's show up out of it.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: Garrett Schantz on 2021-06-15, 07:44:02 PM
I am getting a space heater next year for the basement. In previous years it hasn't been very cold in the early spring / late winter, nor did it snow much.

This time it actually got cold enough to stunt everything.

Some tomatoes are thankfully recovering.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: Steph S on 2021-06-15, 07:54:52 PM
Ten plants got moved out of the greenhouse here yesterday.  Nine are in a shelter, one just tied up to the side of a pea trellis in a sheltered area.  These are in 3 to 5 gallon pots so I'm aiming to keep them alive and produce some tomatoes, not a selection for frost this time.  Just couldn't keep the greenhouse so crowded any longer.   The low last night was 43F with a supposed risk of frost but we didn't see any frost here.  All the plants were fine.   Currently 40 F and misty.   TS Bill will be blowing past tomorrow, some rain and wind, but nights this week will be warmer after that, at least forecast to be 50F+. 
I chose plants which had not grown any fruit yet, and put those out.  Some are less tolerant of crowding or of greenhouse temperature and relative humidity extremes - or they may need more of a shaking to make good sets.  Either way the plants that go out fruitless usually set up quickly outdoors.  These are all being assessed for fruit quality, so if anything turns out to be special I can make room later in the season and bring the selected plant(s) inside for selfed seed or crossing purposes.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: William S. on 2021-06-27, 12:28:17 AM
My experience with seeds, is that they are viable long before they are mature, and very long before they are dry. With my short-season, I often collect and plant seeds that were harvested before maturity.



Tomato embryos are viable at about 35 days after pollination. Seeds are generally collected at 50 to 60 days.


Stole this quote from the Brassica thread because it mentions tomatoes.

A few days ago a MMS tomato I pollinated with BH pollen went shiny. Tomatoes turning from dull to shiny means to me that if it got knocked off and I found it that it would turn ripe and the seed would germinate.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: Steph S on 2021-06-27, 06:17:48 AM
Very true, any tomato that has gotten to the shiny stage can be ripened and collect viable seed.  I've even gotten viable seed from fruit that were off the plant before the shiny stage, but were kept in a paper bag until they colored up.  I never tried to collect seeds without letting the fruit turn color though.
On Tom Wagner's advice, the seed from green ripe fruit may not have as many years of viability in storage as a typical tomato seed from a fully ripe fruit.  So I usually try to ripen those fruit as much as possible, and sow the 'seeds of desperation' within a year or two.
Most of the tomatoes I grow here are fully ripe from 30 to max 45 days from pollination.  I have to select for that, and tempered my interest in larger fruit and famously good tomatoes from places with long hot seasons.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: William S. on 2021-06-27, 08:29:52 AM
That plant it sooner advice is even more broadly true. Minimally viable seed and anything that impacts seed quality, means seed of any species should be planted sooner and not long stored.

I have several tomatoes of a couple varieties in the shiny stage already. Would have a lot if I had won the spring weather lottery or just held things back till a more appropriate time to plant.

Talking about weather heat wave starting here. Will expect poor to no tomato pollination till it passes. Not as bad as on the coast but still a few days of 100 then 90s for as far out as the forcast goes. Could mean I get several ripe tomatoes soon then don't see another one for a month. Google says 75 to 85 highs are ideal. Also nights above 55. I suspect my tomato plants can handle colder nights than that.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: Steph S on 2021-06-27, 11:44:13 AM
Weather here has been hot by local standards, well above average for the time of year.  Lots of sunshine and UV 9 on the most scorching days.  It is perfect enough for the outdoor tomatoes with highs in the 70's and humidex into the 80's, but potentially deadly in the greenhouse.  I used a couple of fans to try and cool a bit, and it seemed that kept the temperature in the shade down to 80's but of course it's a lot hotter in direct sun.  Most years I have not used a fan, preferring to let the plants eat the stress.  But with so many plants, I want fruit back for the effort this year.  IMO the fan was worth it.  Just the past two days, I did have a few drops from the heat but not as many as when I used nothing.  So, William, I hope you get some good breezes and maybe a few fruit will get made in spite of heat.
We have one more day of those 'hot July' temperatures tomorrow, and then we are flipping to a 'lower than normal' pattern for the rest of the week/foreseeable forecast with highs in the 50's and lows in the 40's again, some rain too.
No way of knowing how long that will go on, we have seen some horrible July weather in recent years -  you just can't expect anything to be normal.  ::)  So this will be interesting for my outdoor plants, and although it should be fine for fruit set in the greenhouse, the less sunny weather is going to encourage more growth, when it's already too crowded... I'd like to move another ten plants out but... will wait and see for now.
On the fruit set, I did a cursory count of pea size or larger sets at 90 days from germination/35 days from transplant and quite a few plants have at least 15 fruit coming on at that point.  Lots of full size or close, "shiny stage" as well, and some first ripes expected in the first week of July, if conditions are not unreasonable..  the outdoor fruit will be later, for sure.
The Amish Yellowish-Orange oxheart flowered as early as the rest (which are all crosses) but at 90 days had just set one pea sized fruit.  It is not as cold tolerant as the rest, definitely had a lot of purpling after stress events, and seems to have those 'sticky' type flowers that struggle to open and shed their pollen.  But I did manage to extract some pollen from it and made a cross to one of the rugged determinate minibeefs, and those crosses are swelling so I'm happy with that.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: William S. on 2021-07-05, 10:11:31 PM
Tomatoes in general are doing well. Direct seeded are all weeded around.

Worst weeded is the slushy garden. Best weeded are probably the two seed growouts. .

I think I got at least a little water on or near all tomatoes this weekend.

Most transplant plants are blooming.

Wouldn't be surprised to see a first direct seeded flower next weekend.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: Steph S on 2021-07-06, 06:59:40 AM
Our bitter cold and rain spell lasted 4 days with highs close to 50 F.  At least 36 hours did not get to 50, and buckets of rain.  The plants with no overhead shelter looked so wet and miserable, I stapled a tarp over the top and north side of their enclosure to keep them from drowning in their pots.  On the fifth day we had a little sunshine in the afternoon and the temperature went over 60 F for 6 or 7 hours.  It wasn't warm enough for outdoor plants to want watering, but I did water the greenhouse plants and opened up for air.  Temp inside didn't go much over 70 F with two vents open.  It's been steady around 60 F inside the gh in spite of lack of sun, because there was no wind.   Not so this morning - I opened up around 8:30 am but when I checked at 10 am the temp had dropped from 60 to 50F, so I closed up again.   We are supposed to get sun this afternoon and 22C which is over 70 F, but not closing in on that yet and the wind is really icy.
The outdoor plants have some leaf purpling and/or disease especially some leaves that were starting to show signs of mildew during the damp heat.  It is noticeable that both of the Skipper lines are showing the least cold stress and damage, compared to the F2's and F5 in the same row.  Yellow Project and others which had a roof overhead for the whole event are looking fine with no leaf issues or sign of stress.   As in other years, the "bus shelter" approach really seems to work for the tomatoes.  They don't get as much sun, but get enough through the open side to compensate for having a roof overhead, and that seems to keep temperatures from plummeting to the same degree as well as protecting from rain.
According to the forecast we should have a couple of 70/60 days and then a couple of 60/40's before we hit 70 F again.  I'll give the plants some water when the sun comes out and prune off unhealthy leaves, and see where we go from there.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: Greenie DeS on 2021-07-09, 07:37:33 PM
Up north where I am, last year was exceptionally cold and wet and nothing ripened. That spurred this year's variety trial to find anything that would ripen without cover in my very cool climate. Of course this year took us up to 40C and started breaking all-time heat records; nature likes to keep us humble. Seeds were planted indoors March 7th and the transplants were huge and full of flowers when they went out June 10th despite a month on the deck at 10C that had them looking a little chlorotic and purple-speckled.

Plants now are looking happy and starting to take off. My heavy clay with a slight subsurface seep from the pig wallow is perfect for this weather. I've had my first two plants ripen: sweet cherriette from Adaptive was first, but then bloody butcher from Casey's came in second, third, fourth, and fifth, one fruit carried over from pre-transplant stage per plant. It's a consistent and determined plant for sure, and was first for me in 2019 too. An exserted orange looks like it will be third but I'm not certain yet.

The row of assorted exserted orange, q-series, panamorous, and wildling tomatoes I set up as a pollen trap between the rows of named varieties is visually distinctive as a group: the plants have hunkered down and started putting out green fruits instead of working on vining structure or foliage. Tonight I get the treat of the first walkthrough where everything has flowers and most everything has fruit.

Last year I bought in tomatoes at the grocery store and ate one of the best cherries I've ever had: a green grape-looking one. The saved seeds are producing remarkably uniform, heat-hardy, and early-producing plants. Instead of a dehybridization effort it looks like I will be trying to track down the cultivar. I want to see if the flavour holds true and if it does those flowers will be getting a lot of use.

Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: William S. on 2021-07-09, 10:58:03 PM
Sweet Cherriette is fun, I've been using it as sort of a standard since 2017. Last year and this year I've noticed just a tiny bit of exsertion on it. I only have one clump this year.

Exserted orange was grown in my NW isolation garden last year for the seed EFN supplied. Made it to France and now Canada! The new generation is looking nicely exserted so far. Growing it in the same garden. This generation I froze and then it resprouted.

I grew Bloody Butcher in 2017. I can't recall how it ranked. Only had about one plant. It worked direct seeded. Wonder what catalogue Casey's is.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: Greenie DeS on 2021-07-10, 12:19:37 AM
This is my first year with sweet cherriette, it's a very well-behaved plant. When I think of what I want from tomatoes very long-term in this short season, it's small self-supporting plants like that one or like silvery fir tree. As fun as a treasure hunt through mounds of foliage is, it's not an efficient way to harvest tomatoes and especially not greens and blacks or browns or whatever they're called now that anthocyanin is on the scene.

Have you tried any interesting crosses with sweet cherriette?

(To digress, I've heard rumours of Lucinda, which is supposed to be a silvery fir tree x green zebra cross, and I'm very interested)

Exserted orange has definitely earned a place in next year's garden, it's early and robust-looking enough. I tossed one in the greenhouse and it hates it in there, will not set fruit at all. There are pollinators in there but I'll try hand pollination next.

Caseys is in Canada, on the prairies so very short hot seasons. He also rotates his catalogue every year so there's definite variation. He can be found here: http://caseysheirloomtomatoes.ca/

I did my walkaround tonight and noted any exserted flowers. I think there's a lot of that first-flower stress exsertion right now, but it was a surprising list and I'm interested to check them for consistency in a couple weeks:

karma miracle
mikado black
longhorn
JD special c-tex
cherokee chocolate
alexander b
karma purple miracle
pollen trap row: # 6 (wildling), # 7, # 8 (panamorous), # 9 (wildling), # 16, # 24, (only those out of 25 plants, many of the rest distinctly not exserted)
sugary pounder
carbon
big hill
moravsky div
native sun (this is another pretty reliable ripener but not much flavour)
karma purple multi
alex b
rinon rippled delight(v serious about it)
taiga (biggest fruit so far and consistent in setting early, though not many fruit)

Looks like Karen Olivier's work tends to be slightly exserted though I guess taiga and the karmas were all selected from the same cross.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: William S. on 2021-07-10, 07:18:40 AM
I have not managed any deliberate crosses with sweet cherriette in the five years I have been growing it. It produces relatively little pollen and has a very fine stigma. I think I could use it as a mother indoors. The emasculated flowers tend to dry up on me outdoors.

As far as natural crosses, it is possible. I have a few envelopes of crossed earliest reds where Blue Ambrosia was the cross mother. Though many other possible parents as well.

It may be the most interesting ordinary red tomato in my collection. I may plant it with something like Big Hill in an isolation garden to get natural crosses I can ID. I thought I would keep it in the greenhouse this year for deliberate crosses but changed my mind due to a now past trip my wife made to visit family. It might also work to make crosses over the winter by growing a generation in doors.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: Steph S on 2021-07-10, 04:41:28 PM
My plants were like purple gargoyles on one side cut out of green, and stayed in their poses of angst for several days.   I was beginning to think they would not recover at all but after a couple of warmer days they finally started to recover their optimistic outlook.  The F2's, which have not been through the rigors of outdoor selection through generations, took it worst.
We are continuing to blow hot and cold.  25 C today with humidex 32 and gales of wind.  But two days ago we had another frost warning, and look no further than next tuesday for another high temperature of just 12 C.  The temperature can drop 10C in an hour or two, any time the wind changes.
I expected to have ripe fruit from several by the first week of july but I guess the cold week put that on hold even for the greenhouse tomatoes.
It would be great to breed tomatoes that tolerate every kind of stress but as of now I think it's unrealistic to expect all things from one tomato.   Some will have the edge for cold tolerance, others will do better with the heat.  Which is okay, because who wants to grow only one kind of tomato anyway.  ;)
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: William S. on 2021-07-16, 07:34:15 PM
Picked two Big Hill tomatoes today. Wouldn't be surprised to pick a exserted tiger and another Big Hill by Sunday. From some plants in a crossing experiment that didn't get caught in the frost because I was going to grow them in a container originally.

The two tomatoes I crossed MMS x BH are still staying green.

There are sure a lot of tomatoes flowering now. Few are setting fruit in this heat though.

The direct seeded tomato plants are big now!

Exserted orange is nicely exserted.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: Steph S on 2021-07-17, 01:20:16 PM
First blush today - at least a week later than expected, but that's okay.  Row of four plants of Skipper Pink each blushing a fruit this morning.  115 days from germination.
We're back to the hot weather pattern, and humidex went to 33C today before we started to get some breezes.  Not good setting weather in the greenhouse but I'll take what is already set and be contented.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: William S. on 2021-07-18, 04:40:37 PM
Picked my long awaited MMS x BH hand pollination today at first blush.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: Steph S on 2021-07-19, 10:13:35 AM
First blush on my F1 involving the PI 120256 lineage yesterday as well.   This is great for a larger fruit, to be only a day later than my earliest small fruit.   This plant suckered vigorously and set lots of clusters, so I think it will make a fine early determinate, and definitely showing more heat tolerance as well as cold tolerance, compared to some others.    Large number of locules are present in these fruit, so the size should carry over pretty well.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: Greenie DeS on 2021-07-19, 01:19:14 PM
Exserted orange is the third to ripen, three in three days. I'm especially interested in saving seeds from these first couple fruits because they were pollinated when everyone had weird flowers and when the bees were coming to drink from my garden in the heat so there may be fun crosses. Stupice (heritage harvest seed) was next, less uniform in dates across plants than bloody butcher and exserted orange.

Sweet cherriettes are starting to pour in and I find I really like the flavour. Exserted orange didn't have enough of a tangy spine for me but one can never tell with the first fruits. Does anyone know, does it save true?

It looks like next to ripen will be "a big wild cherry tomato that sets tiny fruits and grows huge" from my friend.

We're still very dry but have resumed normal temps of 10C at night and in the neighbourhood of 20C during the day, give or take. Everything has slowed way down to the kind of growth rate I've come to expect here. Lots of veg formation, green fruit, and blossoms on the tomatoes.

Bearing out William S's experience with direct seeding, a bunch of tomatoes have volunteered in my cornfield (also my pig field, so full of seeds from scrap veggies) and are as tall as all my other tomato plants already, though there's no sign of flowers on the volunteers yet.

In slightly related news, my first tomatillo to ripen by a long long long shot was amarylla from Annapolis seeds, it was a lovely sweet snacking fruit that would make terrible green salsa but will probably be my first go-to for fresh fruit for awhile now that rhubarb is done.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: William S. on 2021-07-19, 06:44:42 PM
Exserted orange segregated out some bicolors last year in the field from which your seed came and has some size variation. I want to discourage bicolors, stabilize exsertedness, and allow size variability this year. So far 18 of 19 are exserted and the other is a probably exserted. However in my field they froze to the ground so will be waiting awhile for fruit. Planted close to other varieties it should out cross to the extent the bumblebees cross it.

Sweet Cherriette hasn't produced any obvious crosses in five years but have noticed some exsertion.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: Greenie DeS on 2021-07-21, 04:47:05 PM
Exciting times! I've had some more firsts: Brad (EFN), silvery fir tree (annapolis, which surprises me: the hh plants were bigger and more robust to start), cole (annapolis), wild cherry (salt spring seeds -- this looks like a smaller sungold to me, haven't tasted it yet), and my green grocery store cherry. That green cherry really impresses me: it's a little crunchier than I normally like my tomatoes, but even the first fruits are sweet and interestingly flavourful and early. I am saving a lot of seed from that one.

My field exserted oranges are pretty uniform, but the one in my greenhouse has huge beefsteak-y flowers with at least a full cm of exsertion on many of them. Whether that's an environmental factor or not I'm going to make use of that for some crossing.

Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: William S. on 2021-07-21, 06:26:26 PM
Yeah, that one with the 1 cm exsertion! Extreme exsertion is more stable and more useful for crossing. Dust those stigmas with your favorite pollen!

That's the strategy I took with the strain of Blue Ambrosia I found to be exserted in 2017. When I save seed from it I pick the extreme exserted plants and also I like to dust those with pollen. Which is how I got Exserted Tiger. It's also how I picked the plants I saved seed from in 2019 to growout what became Exserted Tiger and Exserted Orange in 2020.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: Garrett Schantz on 2021-07-22, 01:19:26 PM
Some S. chmielewskii flowers fell off indoor without fruits - I had been attempting to hand pollinate them using pollen from other species.

I noticed some bees were pollinating the outdoor plants, I hurried and moved the pot outside in between some plants.

Bees spent over 10 seconds on some the flowers, at least five seconds on other which were also revisited - which tells me that these plants are pumping out pollen.

Some of the newer flowers aren't as exserted, still looking pretty nice though.

The pot was placed next to a highly exserted habrochaites, Wild Gem.

There are more habrochaites flowers / plants than the wild gem. Unsure habrochaites if able to pollinate these (supposed) S. chmielewskii plants - it would be a SI plant as the father, SC as the mother. I haven't worked with anything in its group though.

If not, S. chmielewskii might have pollinated some habrochaites or could have pollinated some other exserted species / varieties.

Wild Gem has a few highly exserted flowers, S. habrochaites is more likely to pollinate them due to the plants touching.

S. chmielewskii could have pollinated itself from the bees as well.

Everything else is starting to put on large amounts of tomatoes.

Weight in Gold (trial) has two distinct plants that I am growing, I have two slightly different Wild Gems as well. I purposely selected for off type plants, most seedlings were uniform.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: Steph S on 2021-07-22, 02:09:23 PM
Yea to more blushing.  Still waiting on the mystery F2's.
Major surgery yesterday on a couple of big plants that got some kind of blight or mold I didn't want in the greenhouse.   Hot and humid is the worst in there, mites and mildew liking it best.  More plants moved outdoors.   We had some welcome thundershowers after a long stretch of humid weather with no rain, stayed steamy for a day but then the temperature plummeted again with more drizzle and fog, and today we're back in the low 50's again.
Didn't have to water anything though.  :)
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: Garrett Schantz on 2021-07-25, 07:14:52 PM
Blight is hitting everything pretty hard.

Hopefully I get a few Peruvianum fruits - bees haven't been very attracted to them, granted this is basically their first year seeing the species - one plant mixed with habrochaites last year doesn't really count.

Habrochaites x pimpinellifolium F2s are looking nice. The blight isn't hitting them as hard. Seeing some green shouldered fruits on certain plants, some have interesting growth patterns. Most fruits are looking like they will be currant sized, like the habrochaites. Some plants have habrochaites colorations on the flowers / large petals. The plant with the largest petals has a slight exertion.

I imagine that I will be seeing a bunch of pea sized fruits, very small leaves in the F3 as I am not seeing them right now.

Some probable habrochaites crosses are setting fruits as well. Hopefully I can end up with slight exsertion on these plants.

Some plant seem to be Reisetomate crosses Suppose this is what I get for saving seeds from multiple off-type plants - not a bad thing though.

J&L Gardens habrochaites seems pretty blight resistant.

Neither of the two kangaroo apple species that I am growing have any blight. Same story with the litchi tomato. Hopefully I can do some embryo rescue in the future, for now I will just acclimate the species. Having new traits from different edible solanum species in a promiscuous population would be really great.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: William S. on 2021-07-25, 08:41:39 PM
Not much ripe fruit on the horizon. Though some. If we get some good fruit setting weather I suspect a big crop will eventually come in.

I have some favorites out there already.

About 2 promiscuous project plants with awesome open and exserted flowers but early and abundant fruit set. These will probably end up being selfers. They could be the start of another exserted selection.

Five R18 G2s look to not self and good flowers all. If they will just set some fruit!

One bicolor promiscuous with good exsertion conveniently in the crossing block for crossing with LA2329. No fruit set yet.

One exserted potato leaf direct seeded with good exsertion- narrow stigmas.

One of the F4? MMS PL is a favorite because it has good fruit color and modest exsertion.

I think a couple other promiscuous bicolors have been double flagged for good flowers. Was thinking about thinning one of the direct seeded rows down to just good flowered (exserted) plants. Haven't yet.   

Five more days of an online class. Then will have more time.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: Steph S on 2021-07-26, 05:54:38 AM
It's interesting to compare the differences between greenhouse and outdoor plants.  Those that have been outdoors are still flowering and setting.  The greenhouse plants blew through their upper canopy blossoms in a very short time.  A lot of sets were lost due to the heat and mites, although there are some 'maybe's that haven't had time to grow.   After pruning off the infested and dying upper foliage there are just 'orphan' fruit speckling the tops with no leaves.   Quite a few orphans got pruned off too, but that doesn't matter because there are plenty set below.  I'm also happy enough to see the flowering come to an end because I want my crop in by the first of September. 
 Pruning pattern on the outdoor plants is the opposite: bottom up and thinning with the crown still fresh and intact. The outdoor plants have smaller fruit.  They will take longer to ripen too.  But they won't lose fruitset to the heat.  Outdoor set is always good here.  The problem is, ripening takes too long.  We are back to daytime temperatures in the 60's or occasional low 70's, mostly overcast and some rain in the forecast.  My main regret about moving plants outdoors that are loaded with fruit, aside from risk of losses, is that it will now take longer to ripen. 
I haven't done anything to promote pollination this season, except for running a couple of household fans that shake the plants some while cooling it.  Set has been excellent except for losses due to heat and/or mite attack.  Exception is the larger fruited OP AYOX which for the most part only seems to have set the blossoms I mined for pollen. 
This sort of vigorous selfing is an important feature for me, reduces the amount of attention I have to give the plants and provides a measure of food security.  Those that don't self and set without effort are selected out.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: William S. on 2021-07-28, 06:38:33 AM
Just set my first seed of the year out to dry the MMS x BH crosses. Looks to be about forty seeds from each tomato so about eighty seeds. Hmm eighty hybrid tomato plants of my own design. What would that look like? Hoping to start one plant for a winter grow out.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: Steph S on 2021-07-28, 09:25:54 AM
Happily I was wrong about the moved plants taking longer to ripen outdoors.  Three of the plants moved out in the last week are blushing fruit.  I guess they got their degree days behind them, and temperatures are not much lower outdoors at the present in any case. 
Back to heat and humidity this week with the addition of rain, some amount of it in every 24 hours it seems, and quite a bit in thundershowers or their spinoff kin.   Very wet for the week before garlic harvest.  Outdoor tomatoes don't seem to mind a bit.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: William S. on 2021-07-30, 10:50:33 AM
I have most of the MSS x BH F1 seed in envelopes but I just planted four seeds. Hoping for some F2 seed for spring planting next year.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: Steph S on 2021-07-31, 01:21:22 PM
Temperatures for a string of days in the low 20's C have been enough for my outdoor fruit to start blushing already, which have been outside through the cold and wet vagaries of June. 
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: William S. on 2021-07-31, 06:45:48 PM
Getting some ripe tomatoes but I think the never ending heatwave has messed with fruit set.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: William S. on 2021-07-31, 10:17:38 PM
A little yellow tomato is ripening on a plant from the promiscuous project. It's with the LA2329 as a crossing block plant but the early fruits came before LA2329 flowers. It has open anthers and exserted stigmas (rare combination). The first fruits formed rapidly. I think it is SC unless the fruits have no seeds. Subsequently it stopped setting fruit on every blossom. Very unusual sequence of events. Planning to save early fruit seed for a SC but very nice flower structure selection. Later fruits will have a chance of being pollinated by LA2329.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: Garrett Schantz on 2021-08-02, 12:22:18 AM
The heatwave sort of screwed up the tomato set here as well.

Everything has calmed down now, but I was gifted with blight. So once again, fruit set is being effected.

The Peruvianums seem somewhat resistant to the blight. The temperatures evening out along with the decrease in humidity appears to have slowed the blight down as well.

The strange looking plant grouped in with the habrochaites mix has been dropping a lot of flowers / aborted fruit despite being pollinated frequently. Not every flower on it has exsertion - the ones with exsertion are the only ones been setting fruit, most of them still drop anyway. So it could be a SI plant - or it just has issues due to possible hybrid status.

I checked my notes, the Peruvianum that survived last year was from Restorationseeds. I had no fruit set on the single plant that I grew last year. So, it could be SI. Or I messed up my notes. The plant came up outdoors, so the tags could have gotten mixed up at some point as well.

I am doubting any of my domestics / pimpinellifolium crossed to make this plant. The flowers are large, have markings on the flowers.

Whatever it is, I am saving seed from it if possible. Hopefully it doesn't all abort.


S. chmielewskii has begun to set fruit. I only put it outdoors once, a bee swarmed the flowers. The flowers appear too large for what is generally considered chmielewskii - I am not complaining, this is rather nice. More buds are begnning to flower. Unsure if I want the plant outdoors with the blight on the other plants.

S. neorickii seedlings are beginning to appear. Not really much to say on these yet.

No germination yet on S. pennellii - S. cheesmaniae - S. galapagense.


My Wildling with a lot of S. pennellii traits is quite small. The leaves are small, the flowers aren't very large. The flowers are exserted - appears to be SI. Bees haven't been visiting the flowers on this plant. Now that the weather has been nicer, this plant should hopefully make more flowers to attract bees.

I will be regrowing the "Wild Currant Tomato From Peru" again next year. The leaves are quite small, along with the seeds / fruit. This could help me create hybrids, rather easily.


Some of the Wild Currant x Habrochaites F2s are beginning to show their fruit sizes / formations. One plant has exsertion. Another has a fruit set similar to habrochaites - flowers are large. Others have brown markings like habrochaites. Some have pea sized fruits. When everything starts ripening, I will take a look at seed size.

Ideally, I will end up with something that has small seeds / fruit. Large / exserted flowers. Might as well keep the small leaves as well. Anything that would allow for easier hybridization.


Next year I am converting to a no-till garden, adding compost and everything as I need it. Not expecting much the first year, the mulch should keep weeds down / conserve moisture.


Probably going to skew cold tolerance / drought tolerance tests. I can probably plant some wild tomatoes closer together due to tilling no longer being a factor.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: William S. on 2021-08-02, 09:50:59 PM
A little yellow tomato is ripening on a plant from the promiscuous project. It's with the LA2329 as a crossing block plant but the early fruits came before LA2329 flowers. It has open anthers and exserted stigmas (rare combination). The first fruits formed rapidly. I think it is SC unless the fruits have no seeds. Subsequently it stopped setting fruit on every blossom. Very unusual sequence of events. Planning to save early fruit seed for a SC but very nice flower structure selection. Later fruits will have a chance of being pollinated by LA2329.

It has no seeds. Picked more that are blushing.

Hypothesis: produces some siletz like fruits. Then eventually may require cross pollination I..E. despite odd behavior could actually be SI

In the perfect place if SI in crossing block with LA2329. With any luck an SI in this block will produce F1 interspecies hybrids. Honestly even a nicely exserted should just fewer of them.

Fruit is a beautiful bicolor. Has a great flavor until the acrid bitter component hits you.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: Garrett Schantz on 2021-08-02, 10:34:43 PM

The strange looking plant grouped in with the habrochaites mix has been dropping a lot of flowers / aborted fruit despite being pollinated frequently. Not every flower on it has exsertion - the ones with exsertion are the only ones been setting fruit, most of them still drop anyway. So it could be a SI plant - or it just has issues due to possible hybrid status.

I checked my notes, the Peruvianum that survived last year was from Restorationseeds. I had no fruit set on the single plant that I grew last year. So, it could be SI. Or I messed up my notes. The plant came up outdoors, so the tags could have gotten mixed up at some point as well.

I am doubting any of my domestics / pimpinellifolium crossed to make this plant. The flowers are large, have markings on the flowers.

Whatever it is, I am saving seed from it if possible. Hopefully it doesn't all abort.


Found a single fruit, every other flower / fruit aborted earlier on for this bract. Photos aren't the best, once the fruit ripens I will take it indoors for a better photo.

The fruit is pea sized at the moment - still developing. Definitely seeing some hairs, the fruit is an off-white color like some other wild species.

The calyx is extremely purple - it was slightly shaded by a nearby plant and still got like this.

So far, the leaves, stems and calyx has antho traits. Even if this isn't a Peruvianum-Habrochaites cross, I will still attempt to use it for antho fruit breeding.

The leaves are definitely small even when mature. Much smaller than domestic leaves, wider leaves than S. peruvianum - similar size to the S. chmielewskii, but nobody is even growing that species here from what I can tell.

Unsure of where all of these antho traits are coming from. I would very much like it if this is a Peruvianum-Habrochaites cross. Very unlikely though. Although the high flower / bud drop is suspicious (So far only one fruit has formed even after being aggressively pollinated). One of the sources that I bought habrochaites from could have been growing another wild species that crossed over I suppose.

Whatever this is, I like it. Seems to be quite disease resistant as well.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: William S. on 2021-08-05, 10:23:42 PM
Little bags of tomatoes for seed saving are picking up. Have a little bag for Krainy Sever, one for Earl's Jagodka, one for coyote, two for promiscuous in the crossing block (though one of these the first tomato had no seeds), one for sweet cherriette, one for pinnochio and three for MMS,
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: Steph S on 2021-08-07, 05:12:56 AM
We are back to steamy hot weather with humidex in the 90's F.  A lot of tomatoes are ripening indoors and out.  Have to catch up on the fruit evaluations and seed saving today.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: William S. on 2021-08-07, 03:11:46 PM
MMS x BH four seeds sprouted and four seedlings up. Winter grow out here we come!
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: Garrett Schantz on 2021-08-07, 08:48:29 PM
The supposed S. habrochaites mother hybrid is looking interesting. I originally had some of the odd S. Corneliomulleri in the same grouping - these could have came up from plants that had ungerminated seeds near them.

The fruit on the plant has nodules - if it is a cross, it's between two wild species.

The stems on the plant appear to be a full-on black color. Leaves are dark, cotlydeons are dark as well.

Still only one fruit despite being visited by bees quite frequently - also somewhat exserted.

There is either a SI trait messing the plant up - there are S. peruvianum - corneliomulleri - habrochaites plants flowering next to this plant. Neither of them appear to be compatible.

If this is two different species, there could be problems with the flowers themselves.

Some peruvianums have begun to set fruit as well.

I will post a new image on the probable hybrid when I get the chance.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: Steph S on 2021-08-08, 05:30:49 PM
Couple of hours pruning out the bad stuff today after another spell of hot and humid weather.  It's more and more noticeable which plants are most disease resistant - they're the ones that still have leaves.  ::)   But I don't really mind seeing chunks of plants going out to the compost as the fruit comes in.  Hurry along, season.  Did some tasting and seed saving today too.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: Greenie DeS on 2021-08-11, 11:14:35 AM
Turns out this is a good trial year after all. We're getting alternating weeks of >30C daytimes and <8C nights/<20C days, which has been hard on fruit set. Nothing in the greenhouse has fruit on it at all, but things are rolling in from the field.

I'm tasting my Lofthouse mix as they come in off the field-- one of those plants was the first of only 2 beefsteaks I've got this year so far (the other was a Maya & Sion's Airdrie Special). I've had two really excellent fruits, several ok ones that I'm saving as A grade seed, and a bunch of B grade tomatoes/saved seed. There's a strong correlation between fewer seeds and better tasting fruit from that row; unfortunate this year but maybe fortunate in a future sauce season once I've propagated enough of them. These are definitely in the top 30% for earliness, though they aren't hugely productive. They're also the first to get yellow leaves and leaf curl, though I haven't had enough of any issues to slow any of my tomatoes down.

A couple determinates are really shining, just loaded down with fruit: Minsk Early from the Experimental Farm Network, Cabot & Cole from Annapolis and Moravsky Div from Casey's are particularly absolutely loaded with near-ripe fruit. Katja from Adaptive has just suddenly started setting and has gone from no fruit to covered in golf ball sized in a surprisingly short time. Those look like the heavy yielders from the bunch.

Taiga from Karen Olivier is looking like it will tie with Maya & Sion for "biggish tomato that ripens more than one per plant". Taiga is relatively sweet, Maya & Sion has a more rich, Brandywine-type flavour.

Interestingly my field sweet cherriettes aren't ripening quickly; the ones on my deck have all given me a bunch of fruit so far though.

My grocery store green cherry remains the absolute best tasting and is in the running for the most ripe fruit so far, though it'll soon be overwhelmed by those determinates ripening. I've done some crosses between that green cherry and exserted orange and they seem to have taken so I'm pretty excited about that.

Big Hill hasn't set a single tomato for me.

The volunteers from seed in my cornfield and bean rows, not far from my tomato trial, had shot up and for awhile were similar in size to my transplanted tomatoes. I was having big dreams about direct seeding success as early as next year. They're only flowering now, though, so I suspect I won't get much off them.

I have maybe 15 varieties in the running for next year at this point, plus my next generation of Lofthouse/promiscuous saved seed. I'm loathe to cross anything I haven't tasted but am starting to consider taking some cuttings from my green cherry and a couple larger favourites to play with over the winter.

We're gearing up for another heat wave here, and then I expect three weeks before our first frost.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: William S. on 2021-08-11, 01:24:08 PM
Interesting that Big Hill isn't working Greenie. It's one of my favorites. Probably it and Lofthouse buttercup are my favorites of Joseph's work. Wonder why. I have some of it in my direct seeding, one in a pot, and one in a crossing block. They did / are doing fine and I got some tomatoes already from. The two plants that were transplanted.

 I have big tomatoes on a very good number of direct seeded plants. All of them are green so far. Wish I had direct seeded just a bit of something extremely early for a standard.

I am getting inundated by the MMS genetics. Largely because many of them avoided the frost entirely.

In general tomato picking is picking up though. Not quite enough to color my fingers black yet but dark green yes.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: Steph S on 2021-08-11, 01:45:03 PM
Greenie, Moravsky Div was the best performer the year we trialed in the field, and my friend still grows it in her greenhouse every year, where it is reliably the earliest to ripen.  It's the standard I grow when I want a benchmark for earliness.   I also found them interesting in being more flavorful in a cold miserable summer.  The dreary weather gives them super dark green shoulders and I guess it all gets turned into flavor.  I've heard good things about Cole but haven't tried it myself.
Tons of fruit ripening here but in the greenhouse it's sunscald city and just so much unevenly ripening fruit it is disheartening. Picking fruit the other day they were literally hot in my hand. The hot and humid leaf plagues continue taking their toll on the plants too.  Outdoor plants are ripening lots and suffering less, but there is mechanical damage to some plants on account of the occasional high winds. 
I usually wait until fruit have been tasted before making any crosses, but I didn't this year... sure enough, they aren't the same plants I'd have used if I knew which one was going to have the best flavor.   I had to do early crosses with the OP Amish Yellowish Orange Oxheart, just because it obviously was going to finish flowering and get topped or tank or both (which it has).  The early crosses are just ripe now and I still haven't tasted AYOX itself.  So who knows?  Maybe the flavor genetics will work itself out.  The tangerine fruit I've grown have had a tendency to be on the bland side and melon like.  But  I suppose there's a place for that (okay I'll admit it, my mother likes them!  ;D)
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: William S. on 2021-08-15, 07:04:17 PM
Seed extraction is really ramping up. I could host a very small tasting and extraction party.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: Steph S on 2021-08-16, 04:41:05 PM
Seed decisions being made here too.  Small tasting party of one so far, but I need to get it done.   Sometimes cleverly planned to occur around supper hour, so the husks get tossed into dinner of the day.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: Greenie DeS on 2021-08-17, 02:23:43 PM
That sounds like a pretty good party, honestly.

Rozovaya Bella, Maya and Sion, and outstandingly Taiga have all given me ripe fruits recently. Taiga is visually gorgeous and green enough when ripe that the squirrel gave it a miss.

My green cherry/exserted orange cross seems to have taken, I am super excited. Seriously considering layering/air layering that section of vine so that if it doesn't ripen in time I can haul it inside and maybe it won't drop those fruits until it does.

I still don't think either of my big hills have set a fruit, but they're in good company.

We're basically into fall weather here, two or three weeks and I pull in anything green that looks like it might ripen, and maybe move some of the potted deck plants into the duck/greenhouse for an extra month. This has been a very interesting year. I still can't entirely predict what will come through for me out there.

Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: William S. on 2021-08-17, 06:48:31 PM
A green cherry / exserted orange cross sounds just lovely. The possibilities from that F2 would be charming.

Funny that exserted orange worked better than big hill. The original cross with exserted orange was supposed to be with a habrochaites but then we thought it had failed and a unknown domestic sneaked in but sometimes we then subsequently wondered if it worked as some of the other habrochaites crosses have turned up orange. I got my first ripe one in my seed production garden for it last weekend. Plants are still small from the late frost they endured. Might not make my one ounce seed order for it, but might just!
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: William S. on 2021-08-17, 09:14:15 PM
I have reds and pinks from my 2020 bicolors from the promiscuous project. So XL spread it's pollen.

I also have a red descendent of sungold for the first time so a cross.

Then this year's potted blue ambrosia is a red. That showed up early in blue ambrosia but still a cross even if it happened before I got the strain.

So lots of red crossing back in going on.

The direct seeded I have not yet detected ripening. Curious what it will tell. In the mixed seedings I expect reds to tell me of crossing.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: Garrett Schantz on 2021-08-17, 10:09:36 PM
The weather this year hasn't been very favorable for the tomatoes. Blight hit a few months earlier than usual.

I did manage to get some fruit set from an interesting looking Wildling, the fruits on the plant are smaller than Neandermato / currant tomatoes - the fruits are currently pure white and very fuzzy. The leaves are very small, also fuzzy.

Assuming that this is descended from a Penneli or a backcross.

I should have a few different uses for this type.


No pea sized pimpinellifolium x habrochaites F2s from what I can tell. There are a few habrochaites sized fruits, some fruits are perfectly round, smaller than habrochaites but larger than the pimpinellifolium. Some plants have a slight exertion, some don't. I am getting some off-white fruit with green shoulders, also some yellow, orange and red fruit. Not seeing any pinks, or "hairy" fruit.

Also have some pea sized pimpinellifolium x reisetomate in the same area - these ones had a slight exertion.

Purple smudge and Blue Cream Berries are still showing large amounts of anthocyanin - even when covered with weeds. This includes the stems, leaves fruit, root nodules. The cold stress seems to have induced a sort of permanent anthocyanin expression in them. Would be nice if it also didn't stunt the plants, none of them are putting on any new foliage growth - I pulled out Wooly Kate because it has been a few inches tall for months now.


I will probably retry the pea sized pimpinellifolium cross again, this time using SunGold or SunSugar as the mother. Eventually the offspring would be crossed with the pimpinellifolium x habrochaites cross, or I would just cross it with another habrochaites - I used a random variety that I found online the first time, Neandermato would probably be better.

I am growing a ton of: Wild Gem, S. peruvianum, Possible S. corneliomuelleri cross / backcross (need to grow the offspring to find out more), S. habrochaites, S. corneliomuelleri and a few other wilds (Possibly S. chmielewskii and S. neorickii, along with a hybrid between the two if they both survive indoors during the winter).

Probably growing Purple Smudge and Exserted orange side-by-side as well.

Hopefully the weather is nicer next year.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: William S. on 2021-08-20, 08:25:35 PM
I found a pink red amongst my exserted flagged bicolors today. XL was the father. So a keeper. Maybe I'll call it exserted XL?

Lots of MMS picked a very little Exserted orange- wonder if I'll get my ounce of that.

Raining some after no rain 90 F July. Wonder when first frost will come? If it's early a few things are likely sunk. Sweet and flint corn is stunted this year.

Made some more tomato seed fermentations- maybe 8 or 10. About five piles of seed drying and four in packets.

This problem with seedless tomatoes is ongoing. Got 2 seeds today from R18 and that one intriguing tomato still has yet to provide a seed. Another promiscuous project plant with excellent flavor came with no seed today.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: Steph S on 2021-08-21, 01:49:28 PM
You have my empathy on the seedless tomatoes... here's hoping you get some seedy fruit set now the heat has broken a bit.

Here it's been wave after wave of hot and humid weather.  Running about 10 F above normals and grazing record temperatures day after day, with a  few breaks but still, week after week.   The humid heat brings tomato disease.  Some plants more susceptible than others but still.  Also the temperatures have been so much higher than normal, outdoor tomatoes have ripened at the pace I usually see in the greenhouse, while the greenhouse plants are about done.  Considering they started ripening late, it's been an avalanche of fruit.   Started to cull plants today, not worth keeping for the couple of orphan fruit that will ripen off the vine anyway.   In the perennial garden it's the same.. plants that usually flower a long while are just ripping through their season and going to seed.  Peas are starting to be done too. Grains ripening.  Only the sunflowers for some reason are later than supposed to be, and no flowers have even opened yet!   Tomato-wise, we are at the point normally seen September or October, except that it's still hot.  Well, not this weekend, we're having a couple of normal days before it bounces up again.

My last cross started to blush today, so I'm pretty close to done seed saving after this row of jars, the last couple. 
Starting to look at the end game, what plants do I want to keep and let set a few more as it cools?  Anyone I want to rescue from outdoors and get another round going in the greenhouse?  Any late crosses to be considered?    Feeling for now is keep it minimalist.  Stick to your favorites, no more than a couple of plants for fresh eating if they're well and willing.   

Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: Garrett Schantz on 2021-08-23, 06:21:10 PM
Collected a bunch of seeds today.

The Wildling with obvious penneli heritage is dead along with some other wildlings. None of them recovered from the cold stress in the basement. Seeds inside the fruit were undeveloped.

Collected seeds from notable habrochaites x pimpinellifolium f2 plants.

Saved some from a plant putting off nice bracts - two sets on mostly every one while still putting off standard cherry / currant tomato size - flavors.

Another plant is putting off a slightly orange - see-through type of fruit. The bottoms of the fruits are white.

A few plants putting off fruit that are smaller than habrochaites but larger than the pimpinellifolium parent. The plant giving me the most fruit out of these looks like "copper currant" tomatoes has green gel inside.

One plant has smaller than habrochaites - larger than pimpinellifolium fruits, they are perfectly round like the pimpinellifolium.

Also of course saved seed from "orange" fruited tomatoes. Along with sweeter types.

Also saved seed from the "Wild Currant From Peru" currant tomato and Alberto Shatters. I saved the seeds together.

Alberto shatters is nearly identical to the Wild Currant Tomato apart from a few things.

Alberto shatters has salmon colored fruit - Wild Currant has red.
Alberto Shatters drops and shatters, Wild Currant rots.
They both have slight exertion on certain flowers, both have pea sized fruits - both are late ripening.

Hard to tell if seeds are brown until I dry them, which is annoying as I want brown seeded tomatoes.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: Garrett Schantz on 2021-08-24, 03:24:59 PM
Saved some from a plant putting off nice bracts - two sets on mostly every one while still putting off standard cherry / currant tomato size - flavors.

By V shaped - multi-bracts I mean this sort of formation. Bees seem to prefer this display. These are from a habrochaites.

Posting some collected fruit, habrochaites x pimpinellifolium f2 - habrochaites and pimpinellifolium. (Small blue berries are S. retroflexum)

The fruits aren't very nice due to being thick skinned, only seeds inside. These are mostly for further breeding purposes anyway.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: William S. on 2021-08-27, 05:23:53 PM
Here is the first red cherry tomato sized fruit from a potato leaf segregate in my direct seeded mix I planted this year in two of my isolation gardens.

No potato leaves whatsoever showed up in the pure promiscuous garden. However I may have delved into some additional saved seed from the promiscuous project. The other seeds were exserted tiger and some abundant saved Big Hill seed from 2018 and 2019 that was exposed to all sorts of fun pollen. I still think that the promiscuous project is the most likely culprit. Though there is and always will be a degree of uncertainty!

It has excellent exsertion of the stigma and is potato leaved.

Now the question will be: what will happen with its seedlings? 100% potato leaved would mean it selfed despite having exserted stigma and cool and close neighbors. 100% regular leaf would mean it was probably 100% outcrossing and a successful scion of the promiscuous project. 30% regular leaf would mean that I could isolate the 70%  PL and have a new strain of highly useful exserted potato leaf red breeding tool tomatoes and have 30% fun new hybrids with Big Hill, Exserted Tiger, and the promiscuous project that I could grow out for fun F2 seed in 2023. So yeah this is lining up to a few new fun years and an exciting seedling tray next spring.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: William S. on 2021-08-27, 07:00:59 PM
My four regular leaf offspring of MMS x BH are growing like weeds in the basement. Some winter F2 seeds will be nice and that much closer to an potato leaf bicolor exserted tomato or PLBET if that's the correct clever acronym Joseph came up with earlier this year. It seems a little off. Will have to look for that conversation.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: William S. on 2021-09-01, 12:51:24 PM
Transplanted my four hybrid MMS x BH tomatoes into gallon pots. They've really been growing.

Have about twenty envelopes of seed dry. Just rinsed seven new batches. A few piles of tomatoes sitting around waiting to be converted to seed but none of them look urgent by level of ripeness.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: William S. on 2021-09-01, 09:33:12 PM
Got my ounce of MMS seed. Now just need it OSSI approved and I can share it. 
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: Nicollas on 2021-09-02, 05:00:14 AM
You still can share it with OSSI license without approval iirc
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: William S. on 2021-09-02, 07:44:08 AM
OSSI process has me confused. My fava beans are approved and I just need to finish cleaning and ship the seeds to Snake River Seeds they are unambiguously OSSI now. The tomatoes are all in limbo. I released exserted orange and exserted tiger pending approval. I've been thinking lately that means I messed up and released them without full protection under OSSI. Don't want to repeat that mistake with Mission Mountain Sunrise. Though I haven't read through the directions again recently, pretty busy with school and work.

My idea for release of these tomatoes is really as breeding tools. So I think my requests are all as breeding material. Exserted stigmas are useful for incouraging casual crossing. Potato leaves are useful for detecting crosses.

I think once these are approved I will be loath given the time to approval to release a tomato without an existing OSSI ancestor. Which shouldn't be hard. Exserted Orange has that in being half big hill. Exserted Tiger does not. I tend to build on prior tomatoes in my plans. So I already have a cross with MMS x BH growing in my basement and the hope is for basically an improved exserted MMS though MMS is already a bit exserted I'd expect maybe 1% out crossing where with extreme exsertion in BH we should see more. Hmm, wish I had direct seeded those seed lots of BH unmixed I could get a percentage soon. I've been guessing 30% but it is just a placeholder for actual data.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: Steph S on 2021-09-11, 02:48:32 PM
Just packed up the last of the dried seeds, so that part of the season is done.
Several of the plants that finished fruiting and were cut back have flowered again and are setting fruit like crazy in the greenhouse.  Just as well, there's not a lot of time left for that. ;)
Weather has been back on the warm side of 70 F with humidex, but hopefully the season of the mildews is finally over.
It's nice to have just a few tomato plants in the greenhouse, and room for some other things.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: William S. on 2021-09-11, 03:23:29 PM
I have the exserted orange still to convert into seed for snake river. Need 1/2 ounce more. Just started a batch.

Then I have some small piles still for my own seed. Already converted a bunch to seed.

I think there are just a few more things I want some more seed from out in the garden like the S. habrochaites. I am not sure how much time is left but the temperature is going down fast. Maybe another week.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: William S. on 2021-09-18, 06:17:25 PM
Filled packets with my last round of seeds and started new batches fermenting. Still have a few that in my judgement need more time to ripen. Picked a few today mainly some Solanum habrichaites.

My four F1 hybrids between MMS and BH are still growing away in the basement. Suspect they will bloom soon. Also suspect will need to transplant them soon into bigger pots.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: William S. on 2021-09-19, 06:56:19 PM
Have made huge advances in the tomato seed saving piles this weekend. Just a very few left.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: William S. on 2021-09-19, 09:16:34 PM
Have made huge advances in the tomato seed saving piles this weekend. Just a very few left and those recently collected and need to ripen more before further processing.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: William S. on 2021-09-21, 10:02:08 PM
Just decanted from fermentation and rinsed some Green Zebra seeds and put them on a paper plate to dry before bed. Tom Wagner told the story somewhere of his excitement at finding it for the first time some fifty plus years ago. I think we get to live that same moment every time we grow out an F2. Also a small portion of my garden survived this mornings frost.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: William S. on 2021-10-09, 08:09:26 AM
Have a few late collections fermenting as of last night. Amongst them aready two of the most vexing of seedless tomatoes. No longer seedless.

This problem hit even my ~fully domestic MMS tomatoes. Though they recovered long ago.

There was one 3/4 domestic plant in the LA2329 crossing block. It finally set some seed at the end of the season. The seedless fruits tasted bad. It had open and exserted flowers. Hopefully the seeds will be hybrids! Hybrids with LA2329 that is though hybrids with other 3/4 domestic plants are also possible as might be selfing.

The final plant is a 3/4 domestic cherry tomato I called little pumpkins. Very tasty fruity flavor with closed inserted flowers and completely seedless till the very end and if there are five seeds I'll be surprised.

So seedless tomatoes may produce a few to a few hundred seeds eventually.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: Greenie DeS on 2021-10-19, 04:17:27 PM
I'm over a month past last frost here and starting to process information from this year and think about next year. Of the varieties in my trial, roughly half actually ripened in the field, and I got a dozen crates of green fruit that ripened over the month after picking; perfect for slowly saucing to heat up the house as the weather cooled down.

My promiscuous pollen-trap row had a couple especially interesting tomatoes show up, particularly an orange-yellow saladette bicolour and a large grape/small plum firm/crunchy something that I'm not sure how to classify, it tasted great at first blush as a mostly-green fruit and when it finally made it to red (very slow ripening arc) it tasted pretty normal. I also have two seeds stuck to a post-it note that were not fermented because I didn't want them swept into the general mix and they were from a fruit with almost no seeds; the post-it note reads "yum! zesty!" and I think they were the first fruits off that crunchy green one I just described.

My green cherry cross is ripening indoors, it's blushed. Turns out that plant was big hill, not exserted orange, which is why it's going to be touch-and-go to get the seeds off it. Big Hill did not like my climate. Still very exciting.

Next year I will plant all my greens separately; there were a couple (particularly KARMA miracle) that I just didn't notice ripening because my eye wasn't tuned to them. Greens and blacks remain my favourites for flavour so I'm concentrating on crossing with them and seeking out other early types.

There was a cluster of very similar indeterminate reds that all ripened close together, had varying degrees of ok taste, and were one of the most prolific cohorts in the trial. These included Minsk Early, Moravsky Div, Cabot, Cole, Glacier, etc. Minsk early is on my list for crosses next year as it was the best of the lot.

Katja was my most prolific single plant for production, surpassing Minsk Early right at the end. Also on the list to play with next year. Silvery Fir Tree also was surprisingly productive in the field this year, as was KARMA Miracle and generically "the promiscuous row" (especially given that fewer than 2/3 of the plants ripened fruit).

Most of what ripened got written up here, this is my saved seed anyhow: https://urbandryad.dreamwidth.org/30248.html

An earlier write-up of most things of interest is here: https://urbandryad.dreamwidth.org/30102.html

I have seeds from pretty much anything available if anyone wants to try them; Steph I think you might enjoy Mikado Black. I was very impressed.

This is the most fun I've had in years! It feels like time to set up lights for some indoor play.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: William S. on 2021-10-19, 07:23:25 PM
Wow Greenie! I really enjoyed reading on your blog pages just now about your grow out of Exserted Orange. It's amazing to me that something I grew in my garden in 2019 and 2020 and then sent off to EFN did well in Northern BC. I just sent the 2021 grow out to Snake River Seed.

Hope you find some Exserted Orange hybrids in your 2022 garden.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: Garrett Schantz on 2021-10-19, 10:33:59 PM
Seeds finished drying and everything.

"Off" refers to anything interesting, very uncommon in a population.


Tomato harvesting is pretty much done for me, insect resistant habrochaites are just now flowering - cuttings of them didn't work out too well.

Habrochaites is still going strong.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: Steph S on 2021-10-20, 09:36:20 AM
Great set of tomato reviews, Greenie DeS!   Is the Mikado black determinate?  I might like it indeed.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: Greenie DeS on 2021-10-20, 10:47:15 AM
Steph - I do believe it's determinate. I was assessing for "nice plant that didn't need work to keep it in place" and it was definitely that. Plants do stay significantly smaller up here than they do anywhere else I've been though.

William - My biggest surprise from this trial was that days-to-maturity had very little correlation on whether something ripened or how productive it was, and earliest ripening even with such a tiny ripening window also had little correlation to productivity. Determinacy was somewhat positively correlated in the named varieties, but less so in the promiscuous row. Ability to grow, set, and fill out fruit during cool weather is so separate and a lot harder to predict; exserted orange seems to be great at it. The whole thing is a little overwhelming, it really changes the possibilities for what I can use.

I am very interested to pick out hybrids next year. Between this, a capsicum pubescens trial, growing out my squash f1s, and more corn, I'm going to have to expand my space. Luckily the pigs are good to help.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: William S. on 2021-10-20, 02:39:57 PM
I find it fascinating Greenie that Big Hill didn't do as well for you as Exserted Orange. The latter is still more variable though meaning that some of the plants might have more of the right stuff for your conditions. I imagine that if I keep growing it in the same spot long enough it will become perfectly adapted to that spot!

I really like the possibilities that varieties that tend to ocassionally out cross as Kapuler put it add to the equation as well.

As far as overwhelming tomatoes goes- mine have been that way for a few years now. In a good way though!
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: Steph S on 2021-10-24, 03:22:17 PM
Did the final takedown of the last 8 tomato plants in the greenhouse today.  Only one plant was going down with stem rot but mites had taken over many of the others, and I don't want to encourage those to overwinter.  Picked a couple of pounds of mostly green fruit.  There hasn't been enough sunshine to make these weeks worthwhile in terms of ripening although they continued to produce a few.  Several of these plants were cut back severely in early september after their crop and then regrew and came back to set more fruit.  Two of these last standing plants were the 'gumption' awards - plants that set fruit while in a beer cup or smaller and got potted up for that distinction.  The other unexpected last stander was the black sibling of my 3 unexpected part-Beta determinates.  Not that usual to see a black that is less susceptible to stem and foliage disease than its sibs.  Looking forward to grow this one out.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: William S. on 2021-10-24, 08:27:16 PM
Just rinsed a final batch of tomato seeds for 2021 LA2329 habrochaites. Only maybe 200 seeds if that. Will make a second packet though but definitely a population bottleneck.

Last batch oc tomato seeds that is until and unless another tomato flower blooms downstairs, is pollinated and sets a fruit...  the largest bud turned brown though...
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: William S. on 2021-10-24, 09:46:25 PM
I spoke to soon. The first blossoms of winter grow out MMS x BH F1 are happening on a different plant than I expected and are further along than I thought. Too bad I don't have any other tomato flowers these would be perfect for emasculating right now. Though then it would be a three way cross and my purpose is to get to the F2. Will be a couple days before pollen is shed. I still haven't seen a mature flower of this cross which is modest exsertion x good exsertion. Judging by the immature I would say modest exsertion for the F1. With the goal being largely to get good exsertion on a potato leaf plant in the F2 and thus having a better tool for easy outcrossing.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: Greenie DeS on 2021-10-25, 11:24:33 AM
Overwhelming is good but everything is so much less straightforward now. Instead of looking at days to maturity I am looking for plants that keep growing in cool weather. Russian/Eastern European varieties tend to work pretty well for this so I'm concentrating my attention there. I also should look up some of the ecology on wild sources and see if there's anywhere that reliably stays below 20C-ish that has genes I can bring to the party.

I've decided to seed a plot this winter with mixed saved seed (so with anything that tasted decent and ripened here) to see if anything can ripen from winter direct seeded next summer. Eventually a goal looks like feeding tomato scraps to the pigs in their winter pen and then weeding out anything except tomatoes in spring; this would be a great piece of the agriculture processes I'm aiming for in the long term.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: William S. on 2021-10-28, 08:00:19 PM
Just tried buzzing those two blooms. No pollen release yet.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: William S. on 2021-10-30, 10:58:01 PM
Still no pollen apparent. More blooms including on more plants in early stages. Oldest bloom of the first two looks to be fading. Hmm.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: Adrian on 2021-10-31, 01:54:14 AM
She well must have pollen!
The pollen is liberated regularely.
When i have did my cross i have also not look pollen exit of the anther cone.
Sometimes i see a cloud exit of the flower.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: William S. on 2021-10-31, 09:05:23 AM
I hold up the pollen spoon from my first pollinator tool and buzz the flower and no visible pollen. I keep trying. Perhaps the artificial light? The first flower is senescing. Second is fully open, and third opening. A few more are opening on other plants.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: William S. on 2021-11-11, 01:49:57 AM
I have a tomato set on my four winter growout plants. First few flowers look to be about to fall off without setting fruit. Confirms the lack of pollen from them. Same plant has been producing pollen since then. Clumpy pollen. Suspect set fruits will be a subset of flowers but plants are producing lots of flowers now.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: William S. on 2021-11-13, 08:44:26 PM
Yep it's set. Grow F2 seeds grow! I think I see two additional plants with just barely set tomatoes.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: William S. on 2021-11-19, 08:42:21 AM
I am pretty sure I have 5 to 6 tomatoes set now. Second whorl of flowers finishing and a third starting. Plants quite etiolated. Apical dominance has declined and side shoots are starting. Still in the #1 cans commonly referred to as 1 gallon. I don't currently see any sign of determinate growth.

I think I counted about forty seeds in a MMS fruit. That means five fruits could potentially produce 200 seeds or enough to produce roughly fifty potato leaf F2s. More than enough for an isolation garden!

The micro dwarf plant is getting bigger. The Solanum galapagense is still tiny. No flowers yet. When they do bloom I'll make crosses if possible I.E. I have time and the others are still blooming.
Title: Re: Tomato Journal
Post by: William S. on 2021-11-24, 01:02:16 PM
Last night I realized that two of my tomato plants were sick. Thought about it. Realized it was the two against the outside wall. They were cold. So I moved those two etiolated vines away from the wall and basement outside door. This morning they looked much better. Though included moving six set tomatoes of eight.