Open Source Plant Breeding Forum

General Category => Plant Breeding => Tomatoes => Topic started by: William S. on 2020-01-16, 05:18:34 PM

Title: 2020 tomato plans
Post by: William S. on 2020-01-16, 05:18:34 PM
Feeling tomato plant withdrawal today and there are squash on my seed starting rack still.  Looking through old tomato threads and thinking about 2020.

I plan to grow lots of a F2 of Big Hill x W4 in 2020. That's my priority.

Need to grow out Arcanum and see if it hybridized with Peruvianum. Suppose that will go in the usual bed.

Have a couple of envelopes of Big Hill and red-blue ambrosia with a high probability of outcrossing to various half wilds.

Have a big envelope of wild stuff for direct seeding but I think I'm going to cool it a little on that- though one row wouldn't hurt maybe.

Have a couple nice domestic crosses ready for an F3 growout. One that I might prioritize is a exserted red tiger type. It might still segregate to yellow. I have yellow from the cross but it's not exserted. That might still segregate out though if I went the other way. It was direct seeded so will probably go that route again.

Probably will grow a few seeds of a not exserted bicolor with blue skin F3.

Can't do everything justice though. Like the plant I thought was a three way interspecies cross last year. What did it cross with and how will it segregate? Might not be the year to find out if I want to prioritize something with a higher likelihood of producing something edible sooner... Will miss having so many wild species this year though.

What are your 2020 tomato plans?
Title: Re: 2020 tomato plans
Post by: nathanp on 2020-01-16, 08:52:41 PM
I am planning to grow 8 dwarf tomato varieties out of the dwarf tomato project, as well as Opalka, and try to cross those with some of the Late Blight and Septoria resistant lines that I have.


        Dwarf Almandine Tomato  (Leggy Family)
   Sweet Adelaide Tomato  (Happy Family)   
   Mallee Rose Tomato (Rosy Family)   
   Wherokowhai Tomato  (Dizzy Family)
   Uluru Ochre tomato (Rosy Family)
   Dwarf Sweet Sue   (Sneezy Family)
        Dwarf Laura's Bounty (Leggy Family)
   Dwarf Golden Gypsy (Tipsy Family)  .
   Opalka

       Skykomish (Homozyous for Ph2 and Ph3)
       Piennelo del Vesuvio F3 (probably homozygous for Septoria resistance)
       
   
   
Title: Re: 2020 tomato plans
Post by: William S. on 2020-01-17, 07:13:01 AM
I haven't been bitten very hard by the dwarf bug yet. Was wondering if I should try one. Though I do have a couple in my collection named or described as dwarf but not from the dwarf project. Dwarf Hirsutum Cross by J and L gardens and Sweet Cherriette from Tim Peters which is described as an indeterminate dwarf.

Though all my tomato plants end up small. I think they hit the clay accumulation layer or something and it keeps them small.

I think I may largely skip a year with the PH2 and PH3 homozygous strains. If I grow them it will just be a couple plants.

Title: Re: 2020 tomato plans
Post by: ImGrimmer on 2020-01-17, 09:09:03 AM
Sorry I didn`t read the whole thread... which strains of homozygotic PH2 and PH3 do you have? Maybe NC 2 CELBR?
By the way is the a reseller of Josephs seeds?
experimentalfarmnetwork.org has only a small selection of his varieties.
Title: Re: 2020 tomato plans
Post by: William S. on 2020-01-17, 09:44:41 AM
Sorry I didn`t read the whole thread... which strains of homozygotic PH2 and PH3 do you have? Maybe NC 2 CELBR?
By the way is the a reseller of Josephs seeds?
experimentalfarmnetwork.org has only a small selection of his varieties.

I grew three homozygous ph2 and ph3 last year that someone sent me. Plus I bought Iron Lady. Perhaps Nathan? I would have to check. It was nice. I really liked the little one best. Can't think of its name offhand. Skykomish is nice but late. Iron lady has very few seeds so I only saved a few.

No experimental farm network is definitely the greatest concentration of Lofthouse and Lofthouse inspired plant material available in 2020 and I am worried about the future supply of Joseph's body of work. My base thought is that those of us who appreciate it should maybe work with experimental farm network to keep the supply available of Lofthouse strains but also and perhaps more importantly Lofthouse inspired strains. I think I've said this before, but his teachings may be more important than the actual products, though in my case the actual products may be really appropriate given similar soils and climate. Basically I am about a days drive north of Joseph on similar glacier lake derived soils. His stuff does great here. There are things of Joseph's I've not yet gotten like his Okra and others I fear I've lost like his spinach. I really want to keep focusing primarily on tomatoes for awhile- until something acceptable segregates out and stabilizes. From the tomato standpoint alone nothing but peruvianum of Joseph's is being offered in 2020. I think, perhaps irrationally, it would be nice to grow out and offer them all to fellow breeders in 2021. Unless more are waiting seed testing or something.

There are a few sources for a couple Lofthouse varieties other than Experimental Farm Network like Resilient Seeds offers his Moschata squash.

Mike Jennings set up his Etsy store and was/is selling a nice little selection of Lofthouse inspired grexes. https://www.etsy.com/shop/DiabloValleyFarm?ref=search_shop_redirect

Joseph said recently on one of his permies.com threads that he is shifting his focus more to teaching, which is great. He is also still going to work on the obligate outcrossing tomatoes. However his actual garden is getting substantially smaller.
Title: Re: 2020 tomato plans
Post by: ilouque on 2020-01-17, 11:54:18 AM
I'll be growing 5 dwarf varieties this year. I tried to pick varieties that seemed somewhat disease resistant in the descriptions online, but I'm in a hot and humid climate so I'll focus on selecting plants that grow well and produce well.

Varieties:
Uluru Ochre (Rosy family)
Wherokowhai (Dizzy family)
Dwarf Jade Beauty (Sneezy family)
Dwarf Mr. Snow (Sneezy family)
Dwarf Vince's Haze (Hazy family)
Title: Re: 2020 tomato plans
Post by: nathanp on 2020-01-17, 04:16:41 PM
I grew three homozygous ph2 and ph3 last year that someone sent me. Plus I bought Iron Lady. Perhaps Nathan? I would have to check. It was nice. I really liked the little one best. Can't think of its name offhand. Skykomish is nice but late. Iron lady has very few seeds so I only saved a few.

I think I might have sent you Lizzano, which is a small variety that is highly LB resistant and homozygous with Ph2 and Ph3. 

The varieties I am aware of that are homozygous for PH2 and PH2 are these:
Iron Lady
Lizzano
Skykomish (from Tom Wagner)
Crimson Crush

Quote from: ilouque
I'll be growing 5 dwarf varieties this year. I tried to pick varieties that seemed somewhat disease resistant in the descriptions online, but I'm in a hot and humid climate so I'll focus on selecting plants that grow well and produce well.

Varieties:
Uluru Ochre (Rosy family)
Wherokowhai (Dizzy family)
Dwarf Jade Beauty (Sneezy family)
Dwarf Mr. Snow (Sneezy family)
Dwarf Vince's Haze (Hazy family)

I've never grown any of the dwarf varieties so that will be new for me this year.  They just strike me as perhaps more efficient for the yield to size ratio, and I won't need to support the plants as well as indeterminate varieties.  They also seem to have a fairly well documented track record in their selection for taste.  I selected varieties which are paste types, paste like, or meaty varieties that would be good for canning.
Title: Re: 2020 tomato plans
Post by: William S. on 2020-01-17, 04:22:25 PM
Yep, Lizzano. I think it's a good dehybridization project in itself. Would be good for winter breeding maybe with a small high powered grow light.
Title: Re: 2020 tomato plans
Post by: nathanp on 2020-01-17, 04:26:05 PM
Also, regarding Joseph Lofthouse's seed, you can see some of those who sell his seed here:
https://osseeds.org/seeds/ (https://osseeds.org/seeds/)
Title: Re: 2020 tomato plans
Post by: William S. on 2020-01-17, 04:54:01 PM
Also, regarding Joseph Lofthouse's seed, you can see some of those who sell his seed here:
https://osseeds.org/seeds/ (https://osseeds.org/seeds/)

First reaction was eek. Not enough. This one though

https://givinggroundseeds.com/collections/vegetable-seeds?page=5

Offers quite a bit of Joseph's stuff.
Title: Re: 2020 tomato plans
Post by: Joseph Lofthouse on 2020-01-19, 03:42:53 PM
My life is definitely in transition right now. I'm currently taking classes for 200 hour yoga teacher certification. I got rid of the bees and rabbits last fall. I planted some of my fields into grass just before the snow fell. I may plant more to grass in the spring. The last time that my garden was this small was in the 2009 growing season.

I love the work being done by Giving Ground Seeds (https://givinggroundseeds.com). Julie, the owner shared fields with me for a few years, and helped with variety development. I am very proud of the work she is doing, and the varieties that she is maintaining.

https://www.snakeriverseeds.com/ (http://)Snake River Seeds carries some of my beans, and a few other things that I didn't breed, but subjected to variety maintenance work.

Baker Creek Heirloom Seeds (https://www.rareseeds.com/store/vegetables/new-items-2020/astronomy-domine-corn) carries Astronomy Domini Sweet Corn.

Experimental Farm Network (https://store.experimentalfarmnetwork.org/?from=@Lofthouse) volunteered to distribute my varieties in order to free up my time for teaching. I didn't send them the most unstable/interesting varieties, or things that are available only in small quantities.

Resilient Seeds (https://www.resilientseeds.com) offers a few varieties not found elsewhere.

I'm currently working on putting together 7 complete archive copies of my garden. I intend to include in them: everything I'm currently working on. Also many things that I have worked on and never released, or even wrote much about. Experimental things. Finished varieties. Botanical samples that can't be sold because of low germination, etc. I haven't decided on a price tag for them yet, perhaps around $300. I've distributed about 5 of those per year for the past 5 years, and some of those varieties are likely to find their way into seed catalogs over the next few years.

The promiscuous tomato project occupies more of my time and attention with each passing year. We are doing a winter grow out in a warmer climate. World Tomato Society asked me to be their ambassador. I am writing articles for them. They are sending me to conferences to advocate for promiscuous tomatoes. I have a lot of seed from the promiscuous project. I need to figure out how to share it in the way that brings the most benefit to the world. Current collaborators, and people that have contributed to the project in the past are definitely highest priority for seed sharing.

Then there are a whole bunch of non-glamorous stuff that should be done to enhance the genetic diversity of the promiscuous tomato population. In the long term, that's the most important work, but how to I ask someone to do that kind of labor knowing that the fruits in the first few generations are going taste bleck?

How do I screen for people that might actually grow out a crop and return seed?

Title: Re: 2020 tomato plans
Post by: William S. on 2020-01-19, 11:25:08 PM

Then there are a whole bunch of non-glamorous stuff that should be done to enhance the genetic diversity of the promiscuous tomato population. In the long term, that's the most important work, but how to I ask someone to do that kind of labor knowing that the fruits in the first few generations are going taste bleck?


I've been thinking about this conundrum and its part of why I am so focused on the Big Hill x W4 F2 grow out for 2020. It has a higher potential to produce a higher percentage of elite or perhaps tasty individuals. Which makes me feel like I am not doing the important genetic diversity work...

However I have this further thought. If we stabilize a tasty strain even if it is a little short on S alleles but still functional. Couldn't we use the tasty strain as a tool to inject a healthy dose of tastiness into the non-tasty but more S allele (and other genes) rich populations?

Like lets say we grew out 50 pure habrochaites plant but surrounded each of those plants with the hypothetical tasty strain. Should be able to produce a 50% hybrid population but one that has far more habrochaites in it. Continue this process of genetic swamping another generation or so, then stabilize. Hopefully acquiring S alleles and other genetic diversity in the process?

Another thought is, there exist a few high percentage wild stable strains of non-promiscuous tomato. We are also likely to produce some more of those as byproducts- like 2018's Fairy Hollow. We might be able to use those as future crossing partners with S. allele tomatoes or even some of the more edible wilds like pimpinillifolium, galapagense, and cheesemanii to produce high genetic diversity S. allele tomatoes. Like say we want a new S allele from Habrochaites- we might be able to package that into a mostly cheesemanii package, and then cross it back into the general population.

Also wonder how many S alleles we really need?

Also separately I wonder about compatibility of S alleles from multiple S allele species. Like if my bridge Arcanum accessions ever come through and what's really going on with S alleles from both habrochaites and penellii? Would we be better off with separate populations for each S. allele species?

Title: Re: 2020 tomato plans
Post by: Nicollas on 2020-01-20, 04:38:13 AM
Joseph's work available in EFN : https://store.experimentalfarmnetwork.org/collections/lofthouse

So no source for your promiscous tomato seeds available if i'm correct ?
Title: Re: 2020 tomato plans
Post by: Lauren on 2020-01-23, 07:34:51 PM
I haven't worked with specific varieties for years.

This year I'll grow out a random selection of random hybrids and keep seeds from the best that survives. I'll probably do some deliberate crosses, but for the most part the tomato project is on the back burner while I focus on other things.
Title: Re: 2020 tomato plans
Post by: William S. on 2020-01-23, 08:01:25 PM
Spent way to much time on Google Earth pro after watching a webinar on growing tomato seed crops that said 150 foot foot spacing. Think I can fit 7 because the habrochaites and arcanum won't mix.
Title: Re: 2020 tomato plans
Post by: William S. on 2020-02-02, 08:42:15 PM
Found my 2017 packet of Hamsonita tomato today. Was looking for a packet of Dwarf Hirsutum Cross, but it looks like that's deeper down in the seed stash.

My tomato plans keep getting more complicated.

One growout for a small contract. Want to grow out Big Hill, want to grow out F3 of exserted orange and F3 of exserted tiger. The cool blue bicolor I found last year would like to cross with big hill since the stigmas turned out dissapointingly short, would like to cross dehybridizing lizzano with an exserted, have a new habrochaites accession with known arthropod resistance to grow and would like to cross it with existing hybrids, want to plant a Peruvianum with some penellii, and grow out arcanum to see if it crossed with peruvianum and to put an exserted domestic in its midst, want to grow out just a few plants of some stable hab derived varieties from J & L gardens "wild child", and "weight in gold" got the dwarf hirsutum cross a few years back. It's a nice red potato leaf but with very closed flowers, but deep green leaves, looks healthy.

Wouldn't mind growing Hamsonita, but it may need to wait for 2021 if I am isolating it. Normally I dont isolate anything because hybrids are great but if I am in variety preservation mode I will. I may pick a spot, backyard or one of the gardens where I grow small numbers of things and don't worry about contamination.

However my main tomato project will still be a big grow out of the next generation of habrochaites and penellii hybrids.

I think my methodology for crosses will be one exserted plant surrounded by pollen donors. Will probably manually transfer some pollen onto the exposed stigmas as well. I think I'll plant these crossing blocks close together in whichever garden I choose for odds and ends. If errant crossing happens I'll just welcome the oddballs and enjoy them. It might just be adjacent to the big grow out of F2 Big Hill x W_, unless I make a space in the backyard for odds and ends.

Note: Redid my google earth map (attached) and it looks like I can make room for isolated Hamsonita.
Title: Re: 2020 tomato plans
Post by: William S. on 2020-02-07, 05:12:55 PM
Found my original packet Big Hill, only 10 seeds left in it. I have thousands of saved seeds but all from close interplantings with the hope of hybrids. I could probably launch a Big Hill mothered grex with those. 2018's Big Hill seed should maybe be crossed primarily with Blue Ambrosia. I'm hoping for more wild crosses from 2019's saved Big Hill seed. If so those will go into my Big Hill x Wild field. Talked to Joseph though and he will send more original Big Hill before spring.

Also found dwarf hirsutum cross saved seed but it has super inserted flowers so I doubt it will produce any crosses. I think also I would be happy with one plant of that. I think I just want to grow a plant or so of Wild Child, Dwarf Hirsutum Cross, and Weight in Gold basically for comparative purposes between the three and with our high percentage habrochaites projects. They are all stabilized high percentage habrochaites red domestic types from Lee Goodwin's J and L gardens. Do they have any particularly useful traits for our purposes? I have a curiosity about that. The domestic tomato genome is very narrow. So maybe any available material is of interest. There are also some heirlooms with introgression. It's just hard to know how much. Also with crossing over something that seems pretty high percentage on paper can be selected for a much lower percentage when selecting for domestic traits. Still crossing back to something known to already have some wild tomato in it seems a safer bet than crossing back to pure domestics. So it might be interesting material. Worth three square feet of garden space to me anyway.
Title: Re: 2020 tomato plans
Post by: William S. on 2020-02-16, 12:04:37 AM
A probably incomplete listing of my favorite breeding material at the moment and what I would hope to grow out of it in 2020:

Big Hill x Wild4 F2 seed should segregate out all kinds of interesting things. Some of them may even taste good. This will be my main growout in 2020
7 seeds I got from a Hab cross last year that was ok tasting, a little larger fruited and had very interesting colors, will plant these with the above
Any wild hybrids I find in a packet of Blue Ambrosia I wiped pollen onto the stigmas of the parent
Any wild hybrids I find in a packet of Big Hill I wiped pollen onto the stigmas of the parent and it was growing next to wilds, 3/4 wilds, and half wilds
- the above four I will grow together any obvious hybrids I prick out of the bottom two packets plus the top two. Plus any and all new seed Joseph may send. This should be a lot of plants I have maybe ~600 seeds, if half germinate that's 300 plants plus any hybrids I prick out etc. I plan to plant at least part of this block on a three foot spacing. If I end up with too many plants I will go down to a 1 foot spacing on as much of the block as necessary.

Blue Ambrosia (exserted stigmas, yellow, with blue skin)(1 plant)
Big Hill (exserted stigmas, bicolor)(100 plants isolation block)
Blue Skinned Short Season Bicolor F2 Seed I saved might segregate to potato leaved, want to cross with Big Hill to get exsertion (crossing block)
Exserted Tiger Tomato F2- have submitted paper work to OSSI pledge this as a breeding pop, planning to grow out F3 in 2020 (100 plants isolation block)
Exserted Orange Hill F2- have submitted paper work to OSSI pledge this as a breeding pop, planning to grow out F3 in 2020 (100 plants isolation block)
Lizzano F2/F3 (for PH2 PH3 Blight Resistance and is short season small plant red cherry)(Crossing block)
Coyote (yellow, tastes good, short season)(1 plant)
Galapagos Yellow short season thing tastes good- Andrew sent, not pure Galapagos (short season and flavor)(1 plant)
An exserted pimpinillifolium type Andrew sent me last year (1 plant)
Golden Tressette an exserted yellow cherry Alan Kapuler bred (1 plant)
A blue skinned segregate of Golden Tressette I found in the clump I grew (1 plant)
Forest Fire (very short season red and productive) (0 plants)
42 Days (42 DTM)(0 plants)
Sweet Cherriette (cherry 35 DTM, indeterminate dwarf)(1 plant)
Solanum arcanum and any peruvianum? crosses that segregate from it in 2020- hoping it will bridge peruvianum complex to domestics (one flat of plants crossing block with exserted domestics)
Solanum peruvianum- extremely difficult to cross, but highly interesting wild species (1 plant)
Solanum penellii and crosses (drought resistance, interesting flavors, salt tolerance)(crossing block with the 1 peruvianum plant)
Amethyst Cream (Flavor, blue skin)(1 plant)
Dwarf Hirsutum Cross (Habrochaites content, potato leaves, looks healthy, dwarf)(1 plant)
Wild Child (habrochaites content, dwarf, cold tolerance, blight tolerance) this will be my first year trying it (1 plant)
Weight in Gold (habrochaites content, frost tolerance) this will be my first year trying it (1 plant)
Three way hybrid I had between penellii, habrochaites, and domestic, but planning to wait for another year (0 plants unless include with other penellii)
Solanum habrochaites accession resistant to arthropods (growing this first time this year)(1 plant)
Wild Species in general including galapagense and cheesemanii (maybe 1 plant/clump each)
I have thousands of seeds from interplanted Big Hill and Blue Ambrosia that are likely to yield Big Hill x Blue Ambrosia hybrids if grown out from 2018 (0 plants)

I may not bother to grow even a single plant of some of the above in 2020- I added my estimated number of plants in brackets, its too much to work with in a single year. If I do grow them all, it will be one plant, or one clump of each. So the Big Hill x Wild4 will get the big grow out this year. I might have a few little crossing blocks on the edge of the field with a pollen donor and one Big Hill in the center of each block. If I get it done, that will be where the arthropod resistant hab is grown as hab x exserted domestic and hab x Big HillxW4 and the lizzano x big hill block and a F3 Blue skinned bicolor x Big Hill block, and the Penellii x Peruvianum block, and a Arcanum x exserted domestic block. Then I will do five isolation patches for some I'm growing for seeds at least 150 feet apart from each other and the big field.

All of the above is subject to prioritization as I'm sure reality will catch up to me. Writing it all out makes it seem like too much.