Open Source Plant Breeding Forum

General Category => Nightshades => Plant Breeding => Tomatoes => Topic started by: William Schlegel on 2019-12-17, 12:18:24 AM

Title: Exserted tomatoes occasional out breeding a handy tool
Post by: William Schlegel on 2019-12-17, 12:18:24 AM
http://mushroomsblog.blogspot.com/2016/12/tomatoes-that-occasionally-outbreed.html?m=1

Link to Alan Kapuler's article on ocassionally out breeding tomatoes. I remember back when seeds of change was cool and independant Alan was their plant breeder.

I grew Alan's Golden Tressette for the first time this year. Of course their was some variation with and without a blue blush. It was exserted of course.

Joseph Lofthouse developed his Big Hill tomato in this vein. Looking for open flowers. It is reliably so.

Exserted flowers is now a trait I really look for in my garden. Joseph wrote about it and got me started looking. I'm finding it to be a handy tool, just look for the hybrids, then save seed and look for the segregates that have exsertion. Nice to have a few packets of the F2's marked as exserted. I'm sure they'll lead to future discoveries.

Joseph has a even bigger plan with self incompatible tomatoes. I think it will work too, but the exserted trait is handy on its own now.
Title: Re: Exserted tomatoes occasional out breeding a handy tool
Post by: Diane Whitehead on 2019-12-17, 12:34:28 PM
Thank you for that article.  Last year I grew lots of dwarfs and all the late blight resistant types I could buy with the intention of crossing them.  I didn't make any crosses.  If I still had the eyesight I had when I first hybridized 70 years ago, I could do it easily.  So next year, I'll grow hypertresses  snuggled up close to LB resistant ones and dwarfs and  let the tomatoes cross themselves.

Diane
Title: Re: Exserted tomatoes occasional out breeding a handy tool
Post by: Kai Duby on 2019-12-23, 05:38:59 PM
I worked on a farm this year that grew lots of Johnnys tomato varieties and I noticed that a lot of them had exserted stigmas. I don't know if the varieties were specifically from the Johnnys breeders but, whatever the source, it seems they used the exserted trait.

The varieties that certainly had exserted stigmas:

- Prudens Purple
- Pink Berkeley Tiedye
- Striped German

These are all rather large, long season varieties but figured I'd list them for later reference.
Title: Re: Exserted tomatoes occasional out breeding a handy tool
Post by: William Schlegel on 2019-12-24, 09:27:27 AM
Thank you for that article.  Last year I grew lots of dwarfs and all the late blight resistant types I could buy with the intention of crossing them.  I didn't make any crosses.  If I still had the eyesight I had when I first hybridized 70 years ago, I could do it easily.  So next year, I'll grow hypertresses  snuggled up close to LB resistant ones and dwarfs and  let the tomatoes cross themselves.

Diane

I was fairly impressed with my one Lizzano F2 plant for shortness of season. Would like to cross it with Big Hill perhaps.
Title: Re: Exserted tomatoes occasional out breeding a handy tool
Post by: William Schlegel on 2020-02-06, 07:36:07 PM
One thing to think about is direction of gene flow. In a garden like mine with self incompatible penellii and habrochaites and crosses. Exserted varieties of domestic will uptake pollen from the self incompatibles but not receive. Closed domestic tomatoes will similarly only be pollen donors.

Once tasty self incompatible tomato varieties are realized they will only be at risk of contamination by non tasty habrochaites and penellii because they should not receive pollen from domestics. However exserted domestics will still be able to receive including the self incompatibility.

So exserted domestics are the universal pollen recipient when working with either inserted domestics or self incompatible types and potentially useful either way.
Title: Re: Exserted tomatoes occasional out breeding a handy tool
Post by: William Schlegel on 2020-06-23, 10:14:40 PM
During the workweek I am at my parents apartment. I brought seven of my tomatoes here. 5 are blooming. I was checking for exsertion. Exserted orange check. Blue gold ambrosia check. Then a surprise. Sweet cherriette = Exsertion, this has to be due to wet feet in a self watering pot, probably will stop as the plant matures. Blue bicolor not exserted though grandparents were a little.
Title: Re: Exserted tomatoes occasional out breeding a handy tool
Post by: Andrew Barney on 2020-06-30, 08:11:10 AM
I worked on a farm this year that grew lots of Johnnys tomato varieties and I noticed that a lot of them had exserted stigmas. I don't know if the varieties were specifically from the Johnnys breeders but, whatever the source, it seems they used the exserted trait.

The varieties that certainly had exserted stigmas:

- Prudens Purple
- Pink Berkeley Tiedye
- Striped German

These are all rather large, long season varieties but figured I'd list them for later reference.

Im not surprised the pink berkly tie die is on that list.  I believe it was developed at wild boar farms from natural bee pollination like most of the colorful striped varieties on that farm!
Title: Re: Exserted tomatoes occasional out breeding a handy tool
Post by: Andrew Barney on 2020-06-30, 08:13:04 AM
Alan's Peace Seeds tomato varieties have always been interesting. If you haven't grown his other multi-flor tomatoes I recommend you try them! I haven't checked if peace Seeds is still running,  but peace seedlings by his daughter should be.
Title: Re: Exserted tomatoes occasional out breeding a handy tool
Post by: William Schlegel on 2020-06-30, 12:26:47 PM
Personally now I have ~5 exserted strains, it seems logical to me to just keep planting them together for a few years. Probably end up with more. That's not even including the obligate out crossing project!
Title: Re: Exserted tomatoes occasional out breeding a handy tool
Post by: Andrew Barney on 2020-08-19, 01:51:58 PM
http://www.peaceseedslive.com/uploads/9/4/8/5/94858306/tomatoes_that_occasionally_outbreed.pdf
Title: Re: Exserted tomatoes occasional out breeding a handy tool
Post by: Garrett Schantz on 2020-08-19, 06:20:28 PM
Unsure if Peace Seeds is still around, but there is a post on the blog from December 2019. It also includes something similar to the article that William posted in the "Tomatoes section".
https://peaceseedslive.blogspot.com/2016/12/peace-seeds-2020-list.html http://peaceseedlingsseeds.blogspot.com/

PeaceSeeds has a few wild species it seems like. Peacevine Cherry Vine Tomato, which I'm pretty sure is exerted - also has some interesting notes about it. Red Centiflor Hypertress Cherry also seems fun - only on Peaceseedlings. Black Centiflor Cherry Vine Tomato apparently has late blight resistance and purple striping - I am unsure if this one is exerted as it was bred from someone in the UK using the Red Centiflor, but it would be nice to have something with late blight resistance in an exerted population. I get a lot of late blight towards the end of the season, so it would be easy to screen for it as well. Both are mail order only, they would probably get more sales if a online form existed considering they have some unusual / good seeds available.
Title: Re: Exserted tomatoes occasional out breeding a handy tool
Post by: Andrew Barney on 2020-08-19, 07:51:24 PM
That is interesting. I think peace seeds is still around or at least peace seedlings, though the main website is a bit rough.

That is interesting. I grew the red and yellow centerflor tomatoes years ago. Very interesting. Never knew they were bred from S. habrochiates. Sounds interesting with the stripes...
Title: Re: Exserted tomatoes occasional out breeding a handy tool
Post by: William Schlegel on 2020-08-30, 07:26:52 PM
This is fun, so last year I grew a clump of Golden Tressette plants bred by Alan Kapuler. They have the exserted trait. One plant had a little blue on the fruits so I saved them seperately. Clump grew by a exserted current Solanum pimpinillifolium Andrew Barney sent seed for. 

So what I think I have here is the segregating results of a cross that happened in Alan's garden plus one cross from my garden last year.
Title: Re: Exserted tomatoes occasional out breeding a handy tool
Post by: Garrett Schantz on 2020-09-10, 12:19:20 AM
Forgot that I tried planting a silvery fir tree tomato in the garden. Ultimately failed, started it a bit too late and fungus gnats were in one of the soil mixes I was using - killed off a lot of other plants too. One survived and put out around 6 fruits, had more flowers - but it died early on. Didn't really put it in the main garden. Just so happened to put it near my exerted pimp. Forgot about it after it died. I moved exerted pimp seedlings with large cotyledons, thinking they might have crossed with a domestic. First set of leaves came on, looking at slender spiked leaves - one side is flat looking though. Thinking they crossed... The cotyledons all have a sort of spike as well. Can't remember if silvery fir's did that as well.
 Noticed a few other odd leaves so far, might post some images tomorrow or once the plants are bigger. The leaves weren't uniform on single plants with the exerted pimp parent. Some of the crosses I am seeing seeing look odd. Won't be able to tell if any are habrochaites crosses until they get to a decent size. Granted some plants are showing visible hairs on the leaves, which is promising I suppose. Mostly looking to try and get a highly exerted stigma with pimpinellifolium genes. Any wild species that are able to cross with it should be easy enough to screen for, wild species are mostly all exerted as well. Meaning I will just have to select for stigma size after a certain point. When I get something with good taste disease resistance - maybe leaf - calyx type - seed color, I can cross it with a domestic just for larger size. I could just backcross if I lost something while attempting to get a beefsteak trait or larger size. The Big Hill x wild exerted crosses already look promising from what I have seen posts about. Smaller fruited F1s and so on would be easier to handle inside during the winter though. Allowing a mass population to go "wild" a bit on a property could eventually lead to a really well adapted plant.
 Oh yeah habrochaites have buds again, along with pimpinellifolium. First frost in October. Hoping I get a few fruit, even if under ripe. Might cause some changes for next generations seed. Bees refuse to visit the pimpinellifolium due to the small flower size, unless the habrochaites directly next to it is flowering as well. Could use this to screen out crosses more efficiently in the future.
Title: Re: Exserted tomatoes occasional out breeding a handy tool
Post by: William Schlegel on 2021-04-07, 12:34:17 PM
https://www.snakeriverseeds.com/products/tomato-exserted-tiger

Well, the Exserted Tiger tomato is finally available.

I see it very much as a breeding tool a vehicle to get the blue pigmented skin, exserted stigma, and stripes into additional tomatoes.

Also the Big Hill tomato bred by Joseph Lofthouse is available same source bigger and easier to work with stigmas.
Title: Re: Exserted tomatoes occasional out breeding a handy tool
Post by: Garrett Schantz on 2021-04-07, 03:31:20 PM
I saw the Exserted Tiger on there a day or so ago along with Big Hill.

They also have Payette which has Habrochaites / Peruvianum ancestry - low percentages though.

Was also looking at Sasha's Altai due to the cold hardiness.

I might wait until next year for those - already have moat of my grow light space taken up. Payette and Sasha's Altai would be fun to mix into exserted populations, they are also early enough that I could get a decent harvest from them. Either buying seeds towards the end of the year or beginning of the next.

I have Pruden's Purple started, I will check if this source has exserted plants sometimes.
Title: Re: Exserted tomatoes occasional out breeding a handy tool
Post by: William Schlegel on 2021-04-07, 04:18:32 PM
Yep that's why I grew some of the Payette for them. It's an interesting variety. Very Intermountain adapted. Seems to be a true dwarf like the dwarf project dwarfs with smaller size, sturdy stems, and rugose foliage. All also in the original description. Not exserted though. Resistant to curly top a disease common in the intermountain area spread by leaf hoppers.
Title: Re: Exserted tomatoes occasional out breeding a handy tool
Post by: William Schlegel on 2021-06-28, 10:18:27 PM
Checking out the exsertion on the back steps. Exserted Tiger, it's mother Blue Ambrosia (a strain of it I selected for exsertion), and exserted orange all have good exsertion. The two tressette descendents don't at the moment. Big Hill would but it seems to be done flowering for the moment.

I think exsertion must be strongly and carefully selected for. Though in F2 mixes coming from it I think it's a minor component trait it has a big impact. What would happen in a diverse 100% exserted population? To make such a grex might be possible for me now with just waiting longer to out plant. Then trimming off any contaminated flowers when outplanting. Not 100% convinced I would want to create such a diverse exserted grex. There is perhaps value in exserted tomatoes as more of a continuous intersection with other types. Like a middle row between closed flowered types and promiscuous types.
Title: Re: Exserted tomatoes occasional out breeding a handy tool
Post by: William Schlegel on 2021-07-09, 07:27:38 PM
I have a lot of new tomato flowers today because I was gone at my botany job and it has been days of 90 degree F temps. Also the direct seeded and slow to flower transplants are starting to flower. So amongst promiscuous project tomatoes the majority are not exserted or not much and have no tomatoes yet. Some are exserted and tomato formation is lagging. Those may be truly obligate outcrossing.

However there are two that are beautifully exserted and immediately set fruits. I suspect they are selfers and or maybe even like Siletz and have that sort of seed free early tomato production. If so kind of intriguing.

Also intriguing the first flowers of LA2329 are not exserted. That could mean they crossed last year! Yaay but also grr because not exserted. Note: two days later new flowers from additional plants are exserted.
Title: Re: Exserted tomatoes occasional out breeding a handy tool
Post by: Garrett Schantz on 2021-07-12, 06:55:56 PM
SunSugar has habrochaites-like exsertion. Much better than the slightly exserted pimpnellifoium types.

Probably going to pollinate some flowers with Husky Red Cherry pollen. I quite like the indeterminate dwarf characteristic. The plant seems to support itself - quite nice.
The fruit sizes are basically the same, I have also read that Husky Red Cherry is mostly a stable variety, very little variation.
Basically want a orange exserted dwarf.

Afterwards I will probably cross the best offspring with Weight in Gold. Fuzzy fruit, cold tolerance - high brix.

In the end I ultimately want a fuzzy, sweet - nutritious, disease resistant - early cold tolerant exserted dwarf.

If other hybrids turn out well, I will probably mix them into the group as well.


Tami G Grape is growing right next to SunSugar - probably going to get a bunch of crosses with it. Suppose I could select for exserted grape tomatoes or something.

I will also attempt to pollinate SunSugar with some Wildlings - Habrochaites - Chmielewsky - Purple Smudge - Wild Gem. 

The Chmielewsky - Purple Smudge - Wild Gem crosses would just be to introduce exsertion without using habrochaites. This way I won't need to emasculate the domestics - the exposed stigmas end up getting scorched outdoors anyway. Unsure if Chmielewsky will even hybridize well with SunSugar.

Another goal here - besides exsertion would be to add earliness to some of these varieties.
Title: Re: Exserted tomatoes occasional out breeding a handy tool
Post by: Andrew Barney on 2022-02-21, 02:11:30 PM
I worked on a farm this year that grew lots of Johnnys tomato varieties and I noticed that a lot of them had exserted stigmas. I don't know if the varieties were specifically from the Johnnys breeders but, whatever the source, it seems they used the exserted trait.

The varieties that certainly had exserted stigmas:

- Prudens Purple
- Pink Berkeley Tiedye
- Striped German

These are all rather large, long season varieties but figured I'd list them for later reference.

That's interesting. I believe the last two were bred from Wild Boar Farms? If so, I'm pretty sure most of those really colorful crosses were almost all bee-facilitated crosses. So it would make sense that from that farm those varieties are more promiscuous than most varieties.
Title: Re: Exserted tomatoes occasional out breeding a handy tool
Post by: William Schlegel on 2022-02-21, 02:29:34 PM
Just poked around the net a little Pruden's purple would be your classic heirloom potato leaf and striped german is also an heirloom.

Pink Berkeley tie dye is definitely Brad Gate's.
Title: Re: Exserted tomatoes occasional out breeding a handy tool
Post by: William Schlegel on 2022-06-03, 07:30:25 PM
I have more tomatoes blooming. Early days yet, but I like to look at the blossoms for exsertion. I found some in wild currant from Peru from HR seeds which I think Garrett has previously reported.

I found a few blooms amongst MMS x unk plants and given the possibilities for unk I thought it likely they would be exserted but none of the three or so plants did. That could be evidence for unk in this case being some of the inserted promiscuous project plants as the others were big hill and exserted tiger. Though who knows?

Amongst the Promiscuous x LA2329 hybrids perhaps the best plant in terms of vigour and rapid growth is blooming already and oddly the flowers are not exserted though the stigma does come to the tip of the anther cone. This is strange because the mother was very exserted and LA2329 is exserted though not as prominently as some other strains. I suspect also it is far too early to attract bumblebees which seem to still be dominated by the very large queens and I doubt they are looking for pollen yet like they are later in the summer. Though also it is the only LA2329 hybrid to be blooming yet so I doubt any pollination will occur. It is very early for LA2329 flowers so the promiscuous side of things has added a lot of earliness.

I have a plant in the peruvianum section that looks a bit pennellii like in the flowers. I wonder if it grew from my saved seed and a pennellii pollinated its mother. It does not have pennellii like leaves. If it does have pennellii heritage I hope it sets seed but am not growing out pennellii or early generation high percentage pennellii hybrids this year so it will have to reproduce if it can without a pennellii pollen source. 
Title: Re: Exserted tomatoes occasional out breeding a handy tool
Post by: William Schlegel on 2022-06-19, 06:02:41 PM
I think someone shared an article sometime ago that with heat exsertion can be too much for good pollination. Last spring / early summer their was a heat wave. This spring was cold. Anyway I seem to have less exsertion this year even in the same lines. I wonder if that will change with warmer weather in July and August. It seems like some are still exserted but to a lesser degree. As the degree of exsertion seems to correlate to how much they outcross that seems like this year will have fewer crosses. Maybe not zero though.

It does seem like Big Hill has more reliable exsertion than does Mission Mountain Sunrise. Mission Mountain Morning being a cross between the two might be segregating for whatever traits make Big Hill more reliable. However, most plants that have bloomed so far seem to have modest exsertion to slightly inserted of both MMM and MMS. If I find a potato leaf plant with notably more exsertion I will of course mark it and save more seed from it because it will almost certainly have a higher outcrossing rate.

I am sort of curious to keep crossing my various source strains of exsertion to see how they interact. 
Title: Re: Exserted tomatoes occasional out breeding a handy tool
Post by: William Schlegel on 2022-06-25, 10:07:43 PM
I found this evening I think two MMM F2 or MMS x BH F2 with nice exsertion of the stigma from the Big Hill side of the equation no doubt. They are in the diversity garden crossing block so there is a wide variety of tomatoes they may cross with. However, these things usually partially self as well. Sp I suspect my next generation of tomatoes in the project is forthcoming! It will be interesting to see if one of the two has good anthocyanin skin. I only got one of them marked. It is in this really tightly packed row I planted close together to get some plants out of the greenhouse early. It has a "The One" right beside it but also its half sibling MMS x Unknown. Should be interesting to save seed from. Judging from the general lack of exsertion amongst MMS this spring it is more important than I thought for a while given the good exsertion of the mother plant last year, to get MMM bred into the more reliable exsertion of Big Hill and thereby have a really awesome potato leaf mother system.
Title: Re: Exserted tomatoes occasional out breeding a handy tool
Post by: William Schlegel on 2022-07-02, 08:04:25 PM
Here is a photo of the flower of my favorite MMM F2 aka Mission Mountain Sunrise x Big Hill F2 plant so far.
Title: Re: Exserted tomatoes occasional out breeding a handy tool
Post by: Nicollas on 2022-07-17, 02:34:24 AM
FIY "CHEROKEE TIGER BLACK" Dwarf Tomato has exserted stigma
Title: Re: Exserted tomatoes occasional out breeding a handy tool
Post by: William Schlegel on 2022-07-17, 10:52:32 AM
Cool! I moved your post to this thread about exserted stigmas.
Title: Re: Exserted tomatoes occasional out breeding a handy tool
Post by: Nicollas on 2022-07-17, 12:07:39 PM
Yup its better here

Another cool plant, descendant of BH
Title: Re: Exserted tomatoes occasional out breeding a handy tool
Post by: William Schlegel on 2022-07-17, 04:18:33 PM
Another flower on my new favorite plant which is a potato leaf part of the Mission Mountain Sunrise x Big Hill F2 which I often call Mission Mountain Morning F2 or MMM F2. This is my favorite out of quite a good number of plants. Of them this is the only one exhibiting this degree of exsertion.
Title: Re: Exserted tomatoes occasional out breeding a handy tool
Post by: William Schlegel on 2022-07-17, 04:58:47 PM
Here is the F1 and mother of the previous F2 today still alive in my greenhouse. MMS x BH F1.
Title: Re: Exserted tomatoes occasional out breeding a handy tool
Post by: William Schlegel on 2022-07-17, 08:29:24 PM
A little hard to see, but here is the flower of Dwarf Fred's Tie Dye. I would characterize this as minor exsertion. Still though it shows that there is some potential for natural crosses amongst the dwarf tomato project.
Title: Re: Exserted tomatoes occasional out breeding a handy tool
Post by: William Schlegel on 2022-07-23, 03:58:21 PM
I have a Xanadu Green Goddess plant with exsertion. Makes sense given its origin story as a natural cross.
Title: Re: Exserted tomatoes occasional out breeding a handy tool
Post by: Kadence Luneman on 2022-07-29, 11:13:33 PM
I haven't seen this yet and this seemed the most topical thread.. Do we know if there are specific genes for exserted stigma (style length?), not enclosed anther cone, larger flower? And if the genes are related? Like if I selected only for exertion do the other traits often show up? Thanks!
Title: Re: Exserted tomatoes occasional out breeding a handy tool
Post by: Joseph Lofthouse on 2022-07-29, 11:32:19 PM
I haven't seen this yet and this seemed the most topical thread.. Do we know if there are specific genes for exserted stigma (style length?), not enclosed anther cone, larger flower? And if the genes are related? Like if I selected only for exertion do the other traits often show up? Thanks!

There are a lot of inter-related genes. For example, we can get an exposed stigma if the style is long, or if the anthers are short. We can get an exposed stigma if the anthers are not connected with each other, or if they form a cylinder, or star,  instead of a cone. The beefsteak type flower structure is an example of an open flower (that may have small petals).

Early on, in the inter-species hybrids, I saw a lot of flower structures that self eliminated, for example a closed up flower, with the stigma totally inside the anther cones, and self-sterile, which doesn't make seed, so that particular set of traits doesn't get passed on.

As a general principle, populations that are more promiscuous tend to have larger and more open flowers.

Not very helpful, I know, but it's messy. Especially with inter-species crosses.